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Old 07-08-2019, 03:57 PM   #11
a humble lich
 
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

I have considered making Charisma a separate attribute also. In my thinking, make Charisma cost 10 points/per level with each level giving a bonus (or penalty to reaction rolls). In addition, make a lot of skills based off Charisma. All the influence skills (like Fast-Talk and Diplomacy), other social skills (like Acting and Performance) are obvious choices. Also there are a variety of other skills which arguably fit Charisma better than their current attribute (such as possibly Artist, Singing, Musical Instrument, Merchant, and Writing).
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

I'm more inclined to base the artistic skills off of Perception, as things like painting, singing, and cooking are all about the senses (sight, hearing, and taste, respectively). Appropriate Acute senses should help, but a general attunement to the sensory world should form the basis.

But yeah; I like the idea of a Charisma attribute that serves as a variant of IQ specialized in understanding people and how they think and feel. I know people like that, who aren't exceptionally bright (but aren't stupid either; just regular or a bit above average IQ) but who really have a knack with people.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
I'm a little confused about how Charisma becomes an attribute though. In GURPS, Charisma provides a bonus to some skills and it affects the reaction rolls. So, you might have a +2 to reaction rolls with the Charisma advantage, but if you have a Charisma stat of 12... what does that mean for reactions?
Those skills that previously got a bonus from Charisma are now instead based on it, while reaction rolls become a standard success roll against Charisma, using the Expanded Influence Rolls table on p. 31 of Social Engineering.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
Hmm... it might be workable, but the amount of thought I'm having to put into considering is is high. And my reflex for simplicity is fighting back. A change that big affects how a lot of the book is written and makes it so you have to keep a lot in mind. I don't think it's fundamentally flawed as an idea, but it sounds like a fair amount of work, and I'm not sure I see a benefit that's enough to pay for that work.
It is a big change, but it's mostly a presentational change rather than a mechanical one. Beyond making a new character sheet, it would hardly be that much effort to implement this as a house rule. It's not like we would have to search-and-replace through the book and slightly edit the description of every Will-based skill, although I could accomplish much of that with a single regular expression: s/Will\/(Easy|Average|(V. )?Hard)/IQ+Will\1/g).

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You'll also have to consider attribute pricing to keep balance. If there are Will rolls that can be based on HT instead of Intelligence, HT become more useful, and IN loses some of its importance. It's not a big change, but it is something to consider.
The costs can stay as they are. DX and IQ are the power stats of GURPS. Every attribute is important (I really like this about GURPS: there are no dump stats!) There's a reason why 4e makes them cost twice as much as the other two, and many people consider them to be undercosted even now. A compromise (which, incidentally, is also possible even if we keep Will as an attribute rather than turn it into a modifier) would be to make (yet another) secondary characteristic out of (Will+HT)/2 and roll against that for extra effort. Credit to Mao on the GURPS Discord for this idea.

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Originally Posted by Celti View Post
. . . reaction rolls become a standard success roll against Charisma, using the Expanded Influence Rolls table on p. 31 of Social Engineering.
The tradeoff here is that this means that raising IQ improves reaction rolls. I'm fine with influence rolls benefitting from IQ, since they're based on learned skills, but influence rolls? Not only does that not make sense -- reaction rolls are for first impressions, and it's usually pretty tough to make a powerful first impression on someone using brainpower alone -- but it's also a buff that IQ definitely doesn't need.

That said, I really, really like the idea of writing reaction rolls out of the game entirely.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

I think the suggestion was having a “10+Charisma” rating be used for Influence checks and as a replacement for Reaction Rolls.
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

Random idea: what if rolls relating to twitch reflexes were based on DX+Per?
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:18 AM   #17
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
Random idea: what if rolls relating to twitch reflexes were based on DX+Per?
This came up recently. Keep Move as HT+DX-derived, but make Dodge from DX+Per. Recovery from Surprise could also go in there.
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Extended Secondary Attributes

Wow. As it turns out, Pyramid was ahead of us this whole time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Hunter Johnson, Pyramid 9 (as edited by Kromm for a sidebar on page 8 of GURPS Compendium I)
Another way to avoid [3e's problems caused by self-control rolls being made against IQ plus modifiers from ads and disads] is to define three different types of Will: Mental Will, Physical Will, and Emotional Will. Figure mental Will exactly like the official GURPS Will: IQ + Strong or Weak Will. Characters would use this to resist mind probes and similar mental attacks. Physical Will is computed by HT + Strong or Weak Will. Players roll against this rather than straight HT to avoid unconsciousness or death due to injuries, and to avoid being stunned by blows to the head and the like . . . Finally, Emotional Will is equal to 10 + Strong or Weak Will . . . this is what characters would roll against to avoid succumbing to their mental disadvantages.
Other approaches proposed by the article included the addition of Will as the fifth Basic Attribute (long before the last Pyramid article proposed Quintessence!) and a prototypical form of what would become standard in 4th edition: self-control TNs assigned to behavioral disadvantages individually, with associated cost multiplier. And it looks like the idea of Secondary Attributes was also first published in Compendium 1! I think I'm starting to get a decent picture of the historical narrative here:

In early editions, IQ was used for too wide a variety of rolls. This problem was addressed with the introduction of certain advantages and disadvantages that afforded bonuses or imposed penalties to specific types of IQ rolls. Compendium 1 introduced optional rules to refine and expand upon these mechanics, and some of which ultimately were ultimately made into standard rules when the Compendia were edited and compiled into Basic Set 4e. In particular, additional stats were added, and traits like Strong/Weak Will were removed from the (dis)advantage lists and made into stats.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
In the transition from GURPS 3E to GURPS 4E the designers were fairly conservative, fixing only what was obviously broken about GURPS 3E, in part to keep the simplicity of basic character design. That meant that the number of new secondary traits (Per & Will) was kept to a minimum.
After checking the Compendium, I'm not so sure about this. Per and Will are the only secondary attributes described in the sidebar about secondary characteristics in Compendium 1 -- the others mentioned there being HP, FP, and Basic Speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
I'm a little confused about how Charisma becomes an attribute though. In GURPS, Charisma provides a bonus to some skills and it affects the reaction rolls. So, you might have a +2 to reaction rolls with the Charisma advantage, but if you have a Charisma stat of 12... what does that mean for reactions?
The Compendium sidebar mentions that if you make Strong/Weak Will or Alertness into a "Fifth [Basic] Attribute", but you still want them to modify the rolls they originally modified, then you can subtract 10 and then add it to the roll -- e.g., Tracking would be based on IQ+Per-10 rather than just Per. You could do the same thing with Cha -- only instead of subtracting 10, you would subtract your IQ. This passed through my mind when I was first coming up with these house rules, but at this point I think the best approach would be to just express Cha as a modifier.

Last edited by VIVIT; 07-10-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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