Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Do you find many games where you win by the enemy running out of ammo?

Like, even when the enemy does run out of ammo within the scope of engagement, I'm hard put to think of games where that causes defeat rather than changing their ability to deal out attrition...

Limited uses of some ability (due to having limited ammo, limited spell slots, automatically injuring yourself to use it, etc) means you need to be judicious about using it. Sure, you could easily take out that mook with your silenced pistol, but if you've only got a few bullets you may be more inclined to sneak closer and slit his throat with your knife or find a way to get past undetected without attacking him (to make it more likely you'll still have bullets left if you get to a point where you can't get past without shooting someone). Just having unlimited bullets would mean you have little reason to not just shoot every enemy. For some campaigns/genres, that's honestly fine, but that's not always the case.

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Also, how can you tie a rope to a smooth steel rod magically suspended in mid air and not have the rope slip off? Even setting the rod horizontally, there is no way that rope is going to stay in place with people fast roping down. Quantum fluctuations alone would send the rope slipping off one end.

I'll be shocked if there isn't some knot that can handle that very situation, but even if there isn't, basically weaving a rope basket and shoving the rod in there will do the trick. That'll shorten your rope by a bit, and may take more time than making a more typical knot, but it would be doable... and well below the resolution of most game systems.

[Pursuivant]

As with so many things, GURPS' reputation for complexity depends on the extent to which the GM and players want to make it complex.

At base, GURPS can be a very simple system with math that a reasonably bright 6th grader can handle. With a good GM and reasonably knowledgeable players, combat rounds take less than a minute to resolve.

If the GM and/or players want to make it complex GURPS can devolve into an exercise which requires college level algebra and spreadsheets, where each combat turn takes 20 minutes to resolve.

It's also important for rules- and math-savvy GMs to take on as much of the complexity as they can to keep things simple for players who dislike complexity/math. This is particularly true for "Crunch Heavy/Rules Lite" settings like Action or Monster Hunters.

Use things like Loadout cards and crib sheets for common maneuvers to spare players from having to look up rules. If the players are cool with it, have the GM keep track of character ammo/equipment inventories, with the understanding that the GM will fudge things as necessary to keep the game moving. The GM should only make an issue of equipment inventories if its important to plot, character circumstances, or character concept. ("You're poor, so you could only buy 12 arrows. After you pull yourself out of the river, you discover that you have only 6 arrows left and no easy way to get more.")

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

At base, GURPS can be a very simple system with math that a reasonably bright 6th grader can handle.

Sixth grade math is more than most RPGs require. The low end of math complexity is generally single digit addition, and very few RPGs involve fractions, percentages, non-integer multiplication, or integers with more than two significant figures.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

To be fair, there's probably a simpler way to handle radiation poisoning. Heck, just having exposure slowly deal tox damage (possibly with special requirements to fix it rather than it regenerating on its own) and maybe tossing on some Symptoms at appropriate points would probably work fine for most games where radiation is a threat characters will need to deal with. That seems more in line with how GURPS handles bleeding, for example (where it's just HP loss over time, rather than a separate system that is based on the effects of Class I-IV hemorrhages).

As I said, radiation has a fairly distinct symptom profile, so modelling it as a poison with thresholds, etc., is likely to end up as complex as just doing a custom design. My biggest issue with the radiation rules is that they allow high-HT characters to avoid serious effects far too well, however it's an in-built feature of GURPS that stats, skills, etc. matter, so not having HT saves would be counter to GURPS' entire design philosophy.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Do you find many games where you win by the enemy running out of ammo?

No, but... I've had PC groups suddenly find they have to adjust their tactics when they realise that they don't have the ammo for their preferred one of 'hose everything down with full-auto laser fire until it stop moving'.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Rupert

As I said, radiation has a fairly distinct symptom profile, so modelling it as a poison with thresholds, etc., is likely to end up as complex as just doing a custom design.

GURPS is a system that models all injury as generic hit point damage, despite the fact that in reality different wounds have very different profiles. It's perfectly reasonable to implement radiation as damage (or cyclic damage so it kills slowly), maybe with a box about "this is what radiation injury/death looks like".

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

At base, GURPS can be a very simple system with math that a reasonably bright 6th grader can handle.

I'd have said a 2nd/3rd grader for GURPS baseline (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division and simple fractions), maybe 4th grade for the slower learners. As long as you stay away from Enhancements and Limitations you end up with addition, subtraction, some simple multiplication for a few items and division by 4 and 5 (for Basic Speed and Lift) to make a usable character sheet.

After that the majority of mechanical gameplay is roll 3 dice, add them up and compare the result with a number already on the character sheet. That should be early second grade stuff. If you include a modifier to the roll, you're talking late second grade/early third grade at most.

Now, once you add in Enhancements and Limitations things do get more complex, but it still shouldn't be anything a 4th-5th grader can't handle. And it's still in the character creation stage, so that's at a point where tools (or other forms of help) won't slow down gameplay.

The real complexity for a pre-teen would be organizing the entire process of creating a character. The math itself is fairly simple.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

I'd have said a 2nd/3rd grader for GURPS baseline (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division and simple fractions), maybe 4th grade for the slower learners.

Pretty sure 'multiply by 1.5' (cutting damage) is 4th grade. In any case, there's a big gap between "math people can do if they have to" and "math people are actually willing to do".

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

GURPS is a system that models all injury as generic hit point damage, despite the fact that in reality different wounds have very different profiles. It's perfectly reasonable to implement radiation as damage (or cyclic damage so it kills slowly), maybe with a box about "this is what radiation injury/death looks like".

I like GURPS having detailed and accurate rules for things.

But yes, for common 'realism isn't really on point' gaming approaches, radiation poisoning being basically just a source of tox damage would be quite sufficient.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

As I said, radiation has a fairly distinct symptom profile, so modelling it as a poison with thresholds, etc., is likely to end up as complex as just doing a custom design. My biggest issue with the radiation rules is that they allow high-HT characters to avoid serious effects far too well, however it's an in-built feature of GURPS that stats, skills, etc. matter, so not having HT saves would be counter to GURPS' entire design philosophy.

I believe bleeding to death has a fairly distinct symptom profile (Class I through IV Hemorrhages), but GURPS just has bleeding deal HP Injury. Starvation, Dehydration, Heat-stroke, and Hypothermia all have fairly distinct symptom profiles, but GURPS just has those as FP damage with special conditions to recover. A severe burn and a deep cut are really quite distinct, but GURPS Basic Set just treats each as generic HP damage that causes bleeding.

Now, there certainly is room for more in-depth and realistic treatments of these, like Basic Set's radiation rules, Bio Tech's rules for severe burns, or even my own alternate bleeding system (which tracks BP separately from HP, with effects at different thresholds that approximate the symptoms of the appropriate class of hemorrhage), for groups that want them. But as the default? And with the others being handled so simply, radiation kind of stands out like a sore thumb.