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Old 03-31-2023, 05:26 AM   #1
Nedorus
 
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Default Obscure - looking through?

I was wondering about Obscure and the affet it has on detection "through" the affected area.

Both Basic Set Characters as well as Powers make several references to "in", "into", "within" e.g.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B72
making it difficult to detect you and everything in your vicinity
However Powers states:
Quote:
Originally Posted by P65
Without special modifiers, it impedes signals crossing it in either direction.
Underline and highlight added for emphasis.

This COULD be read as "passing through entirely" as in from one side to the other.

For more clarity what I'm trying to understand / do.

I want an area effect innate attack, that should impede vision into, out of AND through the area. Like a dust cloud obscuring vision plus hitting stuff inside with flying debrie...

Would Obscure (Vision) do the trick (e.g. by linking it on)?
What modifiers would I need to add to make it (partially) block LOS / make things harder to hit inside as well as on the other side of this effect?
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Old 03-31-2023, 06:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Obscure be default is like putting something in a box. It is hidden from view, you can't see inside it, and you can't see through it. There are modifiers that change this so that you can see through the box without seeing whats in it.
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Old 03-31-2023, 06:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Could you please explain how you arrive at this. As stated above all the references in Basic Set only state "detecting" and "in"/"into"/"within" ... The only exception is the quote from Powers (also in my post above).

A quote or rules reference would be perfect. Thank you.
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Old 03-31-2023, 06:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

By default, Obscure is something readily detectable - a smoke cloud or flare for Vision, a loud sound (possibly white noise) for Hearing, a strong odor for Smell, etc - that should (partially) block the ability to sense both what is in the affected area and anything behind it (if you'd have to sense through the Obscured area to perceive it). Defensive makes it so that, while you (the user) can still perceive the Obscure effect, it doesn't interfere at all with your own senses (much like the "darkness" effect Grue generates in Worm). Stealthy is kinda weird in that I'm not 100% certain how it's truly meant to function, but apparently it's not quite as detectable (Obscure gives you a bonus to detect the effect itself equal to its level; with Stealthy, it's still detectable, but has no bonus) such that you may be unaware that there's any obscure effect in play; that sounds to me like it would only interfere with perceiving things inside of the effect, but you'd be able to see something on the other side of the area without issues.

I don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere that Obscure interferes with perceiving things on the other side of it, but given that the things it's meant to represent (notably, clouds of smoke), it doesn't make any sense to be able to see through it without issue but not see things in it.
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Old 03-31-2023, 07:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
By default, Obscure is something readily detectable - a smoke cloud or flare for Vision, a loud sound (possibly white noise) for Hearing, a strong odor for Smell, etc - that should (partially) block the ability to sense both what is in the affected area and anything behind it (if you'd have to sense through the Obscured area to perceive it). Defensive makes it so that, while you (the user) can still perceive the Obscure effect, it doesn't interfere at all with your own senses (much like the "darkness" effect Grue generates in Worm). Stealthy is kinda weird in that I'm not 100% certain how it's truly meant to function, but apparently it's not quite as detectable (Obscure gives you a bonus to detect the effect itself equal to its level; with Stealthy, it's still detectable, but has no bonus) such that you may be unaware that there's any obscure effect in play; that sounds to me like it would only interfere with perceiving things inside of the effect, but you'd be able to see something on the other side of the area without issues.

I don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere that Obscure interferes with perceiving things on the other side of it, but given that the things it's meant to represent (notably, clouds of smoke), it doesn't make any sense to be able to see through it without issue but not see things in it.
This.

Stealthy makes it so that the edges of obscure is not detectable. Basically, think of the two blind spots you have (yes, you have two blind spots), you don't notice them and you cannot see the edges of them, that is obscure with stealthy.
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Old 03-31-2023, 09:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Thanks one again for chiming into the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere that Obscure interferes with perceiving things on the other side of it, but given that the things it's meant to represent (notably, clouds of smoke), it doesn't make any sense to be able to see through it without issue but not see things in it.
It is how I understood it. RAW you can "see right through" but RAI would be "it interferes with perception to the other side...

I think the issue is, that not all perception happens along straight lines. Take Sound or Odor as examples ... Perceiving "on the other side" doesn't really make much sense for those I think. Vision? A different ball game all together... Obscure wants to be Gurpsish as in generic, so they didn't state directly. That's my take at the moment.

Unless convinced otherwise, I guess I'll house rule Obscure (Vision) explicitly to affect "everything behind" as well ... Like a patch of fog or this "inexplicable darkness over there" ... Without needing further enhancements to accomplish this...

BTW: @zoncxs I like your blind spots analogy. I think that fits my cases (specifically in my campaign) very well ... you don't see anything, and aren't even aware that you're not seeing it...
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Old 03-31-2023, 11:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
I think the issue is, that not all perception happens along straight lines. Take Sound or Odor as examples ... Perceiving "on the other side" doesn't really make much sense for those I think. Vision? A different ball game all together... Obscure wants to be Gurpsish as in generic, so they didn't state directly. That's my take at the moment.
Examples include smoke so I read it as blocks through it. Stealthy takes care of that and makes it more a blind spot or good for "Dont look Here" effects.
Smell and Hearing though are good examples of things you might see on the other side, same with real bright lights.
Things can travel indirectly, bounce of walls, carried by the wind, etc. So you might see a flash or hear a boom indirectly as light or sound is reflected off nearby surfaces,
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Old 03-31-2023, 11:28 AM   #8
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
I think the issue is, that not all perception happens along straight lines. Take Sound or Odor as examples ... Perceiving "on the other side" doesn't really make much sense for those I think. Vision? A different ball game all together... Obscure wants to be Gurpsish as in generic, so they didn't state directly. That's my take at the moment.
You'll be hard-pressed to hear something when there's an active jackhammer between you and it, or smell anything when there's an open sewer grate between you and it. But "line of sense" would certainly matter - if there's a reflective surface off to the side, you may be able to see what's behind the Obscure by using that, and other senses may have similar things potentially in play (peculiar acoustics in the area for sound, chaotic air currents that bypass the sewer grate on their way to your nostrils for smell, etc). None of those are likely to be terrible common, however.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Stealthy takes care of that and makes it more a blind spot or good for "Dont look Here" effects.
"Don't Look Here" effects seem like they should be resistible, as they're basically messing with your mind to make you not notice there's something weird going on. Treating Stealthy Obscure as instead simply hiding anything of note (so the general terrain there is visible rather than looking like a gaping hole in reality or a crater with the radius of the area effect, but people, weapons, etc are invisible - or just hard to make out if you have Obscure 1-9 instead of Obscure 10) seems more appropriate, but I'm not sure that's the RAW/RAI, and I'm also not sure exactly how to interpret the fact that characters get an unmodified (aside from Range) sense roll to notice the area's boundaries (Stealthy just means there's no bonus, not that it isn't discernable).
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Last edited by Varyon; 03-31-2023 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 03-31-2023, 11:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Might be nice to have a modifier, which I'll call "Cumulative", that adds a penalty for every hex the LoSense traverses. Instead of "smoke is -10 in every hex in the area", it could be "smoke is -1/hex", so trying to see through one hex of smoke is a bit annoying, 5 hexes starts to get difficult, and ten hexes is the -10 "effectively impossible". And of course you could have different sorts of "smoke"; the military grenade/shell/generator sort is designed to be more than -1/hex.
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Old 03-31-2023, 12:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Obscure - looking through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
"Don't Look Here" effects seem like they should be resistible, as they're basically messing with your mind to make you not notice there's something weird going on.
Yep, which is why you add the Glamour limitation or another form of Resistable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Might be nice to have a modifier, which I'll call "Cumulative", that adds a penalty for every hex the LoSense traverses. Instead of "smoke is -10 in every hex in the area", it could be "smoke is -1/hex", so trying to see through one hex of smoke is a bit annoying, 5 hexes starts to get difficult, and ten hexes is the -10 "effectively impossible". And of course you could have different sorts of "smoke"; the military grenade/shell/generator sort is designed to be more than -1/hex.
Yeah I really would like something like Cumulative in RAW.
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