Bronze Age swords

[pawsplay]

So I was in a recent discussion about Runequest, and one of things that came up was a rapier on an otherwise Bronze Age equipment list. This led to a discussion of how it was supposedly inspired by a real weapon. A little digging came up with some examples of copper and bronze swords, some of them of considerable length, that would presumably be used something like a jian or rapier. Some of them were found in the so-called Copper Hoard findings. Some sources argue these aren't practical weapons.

Does anyone have a good deal of knowledge about TL 1 swords? Low-Tech seems to go straight from the khopesh to the xiphos, with no "true" bronze swords.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

So I was in a recent discussion about Runequest, and one of things that came up was a rapier on an otherwise Bronze Age equipment list. This led to a discussion of how it was supposedly inspired by a real weapon. A little digging came up with some examples of copper and bronze swords, some of them of considerable length, that would presumably be used something like a jian or rapier. Some of them were found in the so-called Copper Hoard findings. Some sources argue these aren't practical weapons.

Does anyone have a good deal of knowledge about TL 1 swords? Low-Tech seems to go straight from the khopesh to the xiphos, with no "true" bronze swords.

From what I've seen, the arguments that they weren't practical weapons, or were thrusting-only is based on them having short tangs, the assumption being that this means the handles/grips would be flimsily mounted and/or too short to grip properly. My personal opinion on this, having done a fair bit of reading on knife design and making, and my father making knives as a hobby and sometimes for sale, is that this is rubbish. A short tang isn't going to be as strong with respect to the impact from a swinging blow, but that doesn't mean it's useless for such attacks.

[pawsplay]

Having a short tang seems like less of an issue if your opponents also have short tangs, or are wielding hafted weapons. I could see ductility being an issue, but again, you aren't going edge to edge with iron weapons, so it seems like you could still have a functional weapon, even if it did have some susceptibility to bending or breakage. They seem to top out at about 100 cm, which seems like a practical size, suggesting they weren't bearing weapons; if it were purely decorative, why not make it huge?

[Anthony]

There's no real doubt that bronze age thrusting swords exist, but calling something a 'bronze age rapier' implies it actually behaved like a rapier. It's dubious whether something can actually behave like a rapier without being made of a spring alloy, and such alloys aren't available in the bronze age (you can get spring bronzes nowadays... but they're made with beryllium).

[DeadParrot]

It is possible the swords in question were ceremonial swords with little practical use as real weapons. It is more likely that copper/bronze smiths of that era could teach us modern folk a few things about making copper/bronze things. Much like modern concrete makers are still learning things from studying Roman concrete. Once iron weapons became a thing, the older knowledge of how to make good bronze weapons died with the last of the bronze age weapon smiths.

Just because our bronze won't do it doesn't mean their bronze can't.

[Michael Thayne]

If you look at images of the blades that have been recovered, it's obvious their ratio of length to width isn't nearly as extreme as TL4 rapiers. And the lengths don't seem to have much exceeded 100 cm (39 inches). I would treat them as broadswords—possibly making them cheap if you're inclined to be skeptical of how well they'd work in practice.

It's also worth noticing that Low-Tech makes shortswords TL1, in contrast them to being TL2 in Characters.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DeadParrot

Just because our bronze won't do it doesn't mean their bronze can't.

We know what their bronze could do for the simple reason that we have examples of it, and it behaves in the way you would expect that alloy to behave. Which is adequate for what GURPS would call a shortsword or thrusting broadsword, but not a rapier.

[Varyon]

This isn't the first time this has shown up on the forum; here is a previous discussion.

[pawsplay]

So... thrusting broadsword, due to early metallurgy it breaks as cheap, but it's weight is enough to make it unlikely to break in normal use?

[RGTraynor]

And the simple fact of the matter is that with Bronze Age swords made by numerous cultures and to a number of designs ... nothing with the dimensions of a rapier has been found. Given the benefit of lighter, faster weapons, inference is obvious: "rapier"-style swords were tried and found wanting.