Gurps says: don't learn karate

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Right up until a good grappler who can also use submission holds e.g. someone decent at BJJ, gets hold of the striker and basically wins (all else being equal)

.....and this being a sports match or a low intensity street fight. In a high intensity street fight the guy being grappled might have a friend or a knife.

Grappling and groundfighting to "win" is strong inside a certain area but always check to see if your opponents(s) are playing by the same rules you are.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

.....and this being a sports match or a low intensity street fight. In a high intensity street fight the guy being grappled might have a friend or a knife.

Grappling and groundfighting to "win" is strong inside a certain area but always check to see if your opponents(s) are playing by the same rules you are.

True but that also true for both sides, no one does well when the other guy's mate jumps in with a knife

I will say staying on you feet theoretically allows you better awareness of what going on around you and ability to react to it. But like I also said most fights end up grappling or even on teh ground anyway.

Also frankly If you already won the fight by breaking the other chap's arm you can concentrate more on what's going around you anyway!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

. But like I also said most fights end up grappling or even on teh ground anyway.
!

"most fights" are not of interest to rpgs.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"most fights" are not of interest to rpgs.

True but the post I initially responding was talking about real life encounters

[Gollum]

The problem with grappling is that even if the foe doesn't have any weapon, the one who grapples him doesn't have any free hand left to do anything (like parrying for instance). If the fight is fair, there is no problem. But if there is no rule, the grappled fighter can aim at the eyes, the throat, the groin, and it is very easy for him to hurt his opponent.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem with grappling is that even if the foe doesn't have any weapon, the one who grapples him doesn't have any free hand left to do anything (like parrying for instance). If the fight is fair, there is no problem. But if there is no rule, the grappled fighter can aim at the eyes, the throat, the groin, and it is very easy for him to hurt his opponent.

A good grapple shouldn't leave the target in a position to grab or strike anything sensitive, and even if you can't restrain their limbs sufficiently to prevent that, you should be able to leverage your grip on them to spoil their attempts. Technical Grappling allows characters to Parry the target they're grappling, even if both their arms (and both their legs for that matter) are occupied, for this very reason.

Of course, a grappler who is used to sports wrestling, where the foe isn't allowed to gouge the eyes or bite the ear or whatever, is going to be at a disadvantage in a no-rules street fight when their foe attempts to do just that.

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem with grappling is that even if the foe doesn't have any weapon, the one who grapples him doesn't have any free hand left to do anything (like parrying for instance). If the fight is fair, there is no problem. But if there is no rule, the grappled fighter can aim at the eyes, the throat, the groin, and it is very easy for him to hurt his opponent.

And yet this really never happens. In reality, the grappler has much more control of the grappled than the other way around.

Sorry for my absence. I had thought the BS driven away by reality.

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Right up until a good grappler who can also use submission holds e.g. someone decent at BJJ, gets hold of the striker and basically wins (all else being equal)

Perhaps, you misread me, but I agree with you, basically because most grapplers (especially BJJ) train against strikers who are striking against them. Most boxers generally don't train against the grapple.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

How about submission holds where you tap or have your knee shredded, or chokes etc where you tap or are rendered unconscious, good enough? ...

Certainly. The key point is that folks who consistently train against fully resisting opponents (striking or grappling) ALWAYS have the edge against people who do not.

[kenclary]

Training tends to beat no training, right up until it's someone way bigger/stronger (but enough of a training gap can make up for a strength gap).

Sure, grapplers tend to win against strikers in one-on-one sports...except when they don't. Even Ronda Rousy quit the UFC after getting out-struck two fights in a row...

In a RPG-type combat, where there are multiple combatents and all that, even if we let everyone be unarmed...striking is a better idea when the character is a novice. Strike hard, strike fast, keep moving. If you've got the skill to do it reliably and quickly, grappling stuff is great...but you're not gonna try to pin and submit someone. It's going to be a throw (preferably to land them on their head, to get a stun) or failing that a takedown, but regardless, you'll want to be standing afterwards. Or maybe a quick arm wrench or something, to (try to) take an opponent out of the fight. Submission and choking is probably too slow, unless you think you can use one opponent as some sort of hostage.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem with grappling is that even if the foe doesn't have any weapon, the one who grapples him doesn't have any free hand left to do anything (like parrying for instance). If the fight is fair, there is no problem. But if there is no rule, the grappled fighter can aim at the eyes, the throat, the groin, and it is very easy for him to hurt his opponent.

It really not that easy a good grappler keep his eyes out of the way simply by just moving hi face away from the probing hand. On top of that a good grapple make it hard for the grappled to put his hand in teh right place even fi the had is not directly restrained. Gouges while grappling are actaully pretty hard to do if you are not actually controlling the head. (a point GURPS and TG represent by halving the steep eye location penalty)

and finally some one putting their arm out to gouge the face is asking to have their arm taken away from them.