Gurps says: don't learn karate

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

I think realistically, most serious boxers learn Boxing Sport, but in the course of getting knocked around, and maybe some out of the ring brawling, and after getting hit with a foul now and then, and maybe doing one, they actually sink a few points into the combat version of the skill. In GURPS terms they are buying up the default. But in GURPS you should never actually do that, you're better off just raising the underlying skill and letting the other skill lag.

That depends on how many points you've got in the main skill, what the default is like (in the Combat/Sport/Art triad the easy default works against putting points into the secondary skill(s)), and whether there are any special benefits of the secondary skill that only apply if there's an actual point in it (further defaults off it, for example).

[ehrbar]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

In GURPS terms they are buying up the default. But in GURPS you should never actually do that, you're better off just raising the underlying skill and letting the other skill lag.

PK's house rule, where you can buy your defaults up in the other two of the Combat/Art/Sport triad up as Average techniques (capped at skill level in the skill you're defaulting from) seems to handle this well.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That depends on how many points you've got in the main skill, what the default is like (in the Combat/Sport/Art triad the easy default works against putting points into the secondary skill(s)), and whether there are any special benefits of the secondary skill that only apply if there's an actual point in it (further defaults off it, for example).

There's a fairly narrow band where buying up from default costs less than buying up the base skill (for an Average skill, it's from when your default is DX-1 to when it's DX+1), and as for getting special benefits, you can just invest [1] into the secondary skill to get those (this doesn't improve the skill level of the secondary, but does treat you as having the skill at the relevant level for all purposes, like being able to learn Techniques or get further defaults). Letting defaults be bought up as Techniques is easy to implement and probably balanced well-enough, but unless there's a cap on how high a particular skill can go, the RAW rules don't really work once you get to the [4]/+1 part of skill progression.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Letting defaults be bought up as Techniques is easy to implement and probably balanced well-enough, but unless there's a cap on how high a particular skill can go, the RAW rules don't really work once you get to the [4]/+1 part of skill progression.

This is how I've done skill defaults and largely it works well. There's a few extra caveats;

A) Skill defaults can't go above the base skill. This isn't actually an issue since it just means buying up the base skill is also buying up all the skills. This might step on the toes of talents, but talents don't have to be skills that can default to each other (and, of course, get other benefits even at the 5pt bracket).
B) Techniques cost 1pt (they are basically but not literally perks). There's a few techniques that had some problems and one magic system that has an issue, but those can be fixed individually
C) I added a lot of defaults between weapon skills to help bridge the gap in places.
D) There's no punishment for the order you do things in. If it turns out it would have been cheaper to have skill A based on skill B than B based on A without any other issues, I just let the player switch it around.
E) I can't remember which skill it is, but some skill has like over a dozen defaults attached to it. I don't have a fix for that, but no one has abused it yet, either.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

D) There's no punishment for the order you do things in. If it turns out it would have been cheaper to have skill A based on skill B than B based on A without any other issues, I just let the player switch it around.

That is essentially standard GURPS RAW.

E) I can't remember which skill it is, but some skill has like over a dozen defaults attached to it. I don't have a fix for that, but no one has abused it yet, either.

Probably Physician?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by kenclary

That is essentially standard GURPS RAW.

True, but it pays to be clear. Redundancy is better than vagueness.

Originally Posted by kenclary

Probably Physician?

Maybe? I feel like it might be Administration, but I don't have my books on me to check.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

[Letting defaults be bought up as Techniques] is how I've done skill defaults and largely it works well.
[...]
Techniques cost 1pt (they are basically but not literally perks). There's a few techniques that had some problems and one magic system that has an issue, but those can be fixed individually

Putting these together, are you saying you charge only [1] to go from the defaulted score to the score it's defaulting from (so for a character with Two-Handed Sword 16, they can boost their defaulted Broadsword 12 to 16 with [1]), or do you use the old Technique pricing ([1] per +1, possibly with an extra [1] for the first level) for buying up defaults but only charge [1] to buy up other Techniques to full (so that character with Two-Handed Sword 16 would need to pay either [4] or [5] to boost their Broadsword from 12 to 16, but could boost, say, their Counterattack with Two-Handed Sword to 16 for only [1])? Also, do you still have Techniques be per-skill, or can they also benefit from defaulting - that is, if the above character has both bought up Broadsword to 16 (for [1], [4], or [5]) and Counterattack (Two-Handed Sword) to 16 for [1], do they have Counterattack (Broadsword) at 16 for free, or is it at 11 and would need an investment of [1] to bring it up? Just out of curiosity.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Putting these together, are you saying you charge only [1] to go from the defaulted score to the score it's defaulting from (so for a character with Two-Handed Sword 16, they can boost their defaulted Broadsword 12 to 16 with [1]), or do you use the old Technique pricing ([1] per +1, possibly with an extra [1] for the first level) for buying up defaults but only charge [1] to buy up other Techniques to full (so that character with Two-Handed Sword 16 would need to pay either [4] or [5] to boost their Broadsword from 12 to 16, but could boost, say, their Counterattack with Two-Handed Sword to 16 for only [1])? Also, do you still have Techniques be per-skill, or can they also benefit from defaulting - that is, if the above character has both bought up Broadsword to 16 (for [1], [4], or [5]) and Counterattack (Two-Handed Sword) to 16 for [1], do they have Counterattack (Broadsword) at 16 for free, or is it at 11 and would need an investment of [1] to bring it up? Just out of curiosity.

It's a little hard to parse everything you said, so I'll just post my system and hope it answers your questions;

- Buying Skills from attributes works the same.
- Buying a skill up from a default to another skill works as (average) techniques currently work, 1pt per -1 bought of. You can't go above the base skill by doing this. And if switching around which skill is the 'base' skill would make things cheaper without any loss, you can (and likely should) do this.
- Buying techniques costs a single point. Techniques are still per skill, regardless of how those skills are bought. There's no difference between average or hard techniques (although generally hard techniques are harder to acquire in play, sometimes due to a higher monetary cost).
- Wildcard skills count as skills for most intents and purposes. Buying a technique for the bang skill costs 1 point and works for any skill it covers that it can apply to (this is more important for Wild styles than regular bang skills in my experience).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

...

I have taken traditional martial arts for the majority of my life. I have also taken BJJ, Muay Thai and boxing. One group is MUCH more effective in a real life encounter than the other (hint: It's the latter).

...

Right up until a good grappler who can also use submission holds e.g. someone decent at BJJ, gets hold of the striker and basically wins (all else being equal)

Maybe the striker gets really lucky and stops the grappler cold with strikes before they're grappled. Or maybe the striker gets really lucky and is able to consistently stay out of range while still doing what they want to do. But if you've seen enough real life encounters you will know most of the time it ends in grappling range and if that goes on long enough more often than not it ends up on the ground.


And yes I said a good grappler but to be fair we have to assume equal skill levels and it's not like a unskilled boxer or TKD guy is much use in real life encounters either


NB don't get me wrong I like boxing here, depending on how you look at it it concentrates on teaching you to do something really well punch effectively without getting punched effectively back, foot work, distance work, conditioning all that (but while ignoring lots of other things), but it also tends to come with lots of sparring, and full contact if you compete (or near to it) and so on. But once a boxer is grappled they're in trouble

Originally Posted by seycyrus

...



Unless you have trained these techniques at full speed and power against a resisting opponent who is fighting you at full speed and power, you haven't really trained them at all.

Therefore, in Gurps terms you get a -3 to your skill.



Show me the groin kicks, the throat strikes, spine strikes, Adam Apple tears, breaking the fingers etc. (you know, the things you actually mentioned) practiced at full speed and power against resisting opponents who are fighting you at full speed and power.

.

How about submission holds where you tap or have your knee shredded, or chokes etc where you tap or are rendered unconscious, good enough? Most submission holds are these kind of attacks, just within the competition rule set you pause just before the final point so your opponent has the option to capitulate before finishing the move. And in some ways it easier to just complete the move and not try and hold some point in between like that. (the nature of Grappling and submission moves meaning you can do that though, while you can't hold a punch to the throat or knee to the balls just before the moment of completion those only being all or nothing things)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

Peter the PC (all 10's no skills) gets his ass kicked in a bar fight with Nolan the NPC (DX 11). He hates it and wants to learn karate.

He joins a karate club and trains for 1 year, 4 hours a week = 200hours). Now he has 1 point in karate. He meets Nolan again.

His skill is 8, which is still too low. Nolan still beats him. Peter is stubborn and starts practicing again. After 3 more years he has 4 cp on his character sheet and a skill of 10. Still not as high has Nolan, but since Karate also gives him some more advantages he now stands a chance. Still, four years karate, just to get over a very small difference is quite an investment.

It gets even worse. To be fair: What Peter learns in a normal school, is karate art. He knows how to move at tournaments and do kata's but still doesn't have a clue about how a real fight goes. Karate art is karate -3, so he needs 12 cp extra, 12 more years of training, before he can finally face Nolan. Beating a slightly better guy in a bar becomes a life's work of 16 years fairly intensive practice.

What am I missing?

My initial thought is don't get too caught up with the 200 hours = 1 Pt concept, it's pretty vague.

My second thought is if the guy has committed to 4 years of Karate training he could well have picked up some other relative benefits maybe he's got a point in DX or ST or HT just from the 4 years of sparring and physical training.

But yes if he is doing kata and forms only, no sparring no competition, and no full contact* that non combat penalty is not doing him any favours. But the reality is schools where you don't spar and don't compete full contact are an issue for real life application.




In reality the distinction between what GURPS calls an Art form of the skill and the combat form of the skill is likely more a sliding scale than a hard and fast -3 for all skills and certainly for all schools/classes within those skills. But it's a gaming abstraction that makes an important point



Also as previously mentioned the "Harsh reality for unskilled fighters" optional rules in GURPS Martial Arts might be worth a look



*and yes full contact in actual Karate classes is somewhat rare but it's out there and more relevantly other martial arts that would count as karate in GURPS terms have it.