Gurps says: don't learn karate

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Willy

By the way, if I mostly add to PCs always a bit Brawling, I find it at low levels more helpful than judo or karate.

I find Brawling more common than Karate too, probably because the games I've run with GURPS in the past twenty years have been SF games and hand to hand combat has been fairly rare.

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by Gollum

...

When I’m saying that traditional karate techniques are too dangerous to be used in competition, ...

Sorry to say, but this cop out was addressed in my post, and has been addressed countless number of times in the past 30 years and before that. Please see bullshido.net The original challenges WERE "anything goes." The result was the same.

Originally Posted by Gollum

...enforcing someone who learned all these techniques to avoid using them ...

Unless you have trained these techniques at full speed and power against a resisting opponent who is fighting you at full speed and power, you haven't really trained them at all.

Therefore, in Gurps terms you get a -3 to your skill.

Originally Posted by Gollum

In a traditional martial art, there are a lot of ways to practice against resisting opponents. ...

Show me the groin kicks, the throat strikes, spine strikes, Adam Apple tears, breaking the fingers etc. (you know, the things you actually mentioned) practiced at full speed and power against resisting opponents who are fighting you at full speed and power.

Originally Posted by Gollum

The only difference is that those exercises are not competitive fights. Jyukumite for dexterity and speed, with real strike at the torso when you are black belt (with or even without sport armors), kakie undo or kakie eido for strength and stamina, sanchin or tensho with striking tests for toughness, and so on.

Did that, done those. None are even close to be considered as practice for what you listed as the "dangerous techniques".

Originally Posted by Gollum

...Because the problem of competitive fights is that, most of the time, the strongest win and the weakest loses ...

Unless you are using the terms, "strongest" and "weakest" in a symbolic sense, for example "Chinese Kung Fu is strong, Japanese Karate is weak" this is only true is if there are 2 competitors that don't train against fully resisting opponents, or there is a VAST disparity in size and/or strength.

If one has trained against fully resisting opponents and the other hasn't, the first guy wins. IN the ring, and in real life.

Originally Posted by Gollum

In traditional karate, nobody loses. Everyone learns something because there is no applause, no medal to win, so the strongest is here to help the weakest to improve, not to bump on him until he is knocked out.

And if they try to use what they have learned, in a real fight, they effectively perform at -3, at best.

Originally Posted by Gollum

When you say that you "have taken traditional martial arts for the majority of your life", which one, how much time, and to what level, please? Traditional martial arts are like musical instruments. 5 years of full time practice is nothing more than a good start.

This is yet another tired, old argument that has been put to rest for many years - claiming that one simply hasn't trained in the correct style, or for long enough, to master the secret, "too dangerous for the ring" techniques. I'm not here to put the traditional styles, I've practiced, under scrutiny as I don't see how that is germane to the argument.

One can practice the "secret techniques" for 50 years, and be a 10th Dan, but unless you have trained them effectively against a fully resisting opponent, you haven't really trained them at all.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Show me the groin kicks, the throat strikes, spine strikes, Adam Apple tears, breaking the fingers etc. (you know, the things you actually mentioned) practiced at full speed and power against resisting opponents who are fighting you at full speed and power.

One can practice the "secret techniques" for 50 years, and be a 10th Dan, but unless you have trained them effectively against a fully resisting opponent, you haven't really trained them at all.

How exactly would you like someone to show you people practicing life threatening or life changing moves on a live opponent?

You're talking about "old, tired arguments" but you're calling for the impossible as a test and you're certainly not presenting a side where these things have been done to prove that side better.

The same goes for the suggestion that "anything goes" in the original challenges. That's just nonsense. If people had been brutally killed or received life changing injuries, the opponents would have been locked up regardless of anyone's supposed agreement to it.

You also keep talking about fighting "full speed and power against resisting opponents". No one does that anywhere that is in public view because it would be illegal. MMA fighters fight against a single opponent, following rules, in a custom designed space, with a referee, for example.

Also, bullshido isn't an authoritative source.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Sorry to say, but this cop out was addressed in my post, and has been addressed countless number of times in the past 30 years and before that. Please see bullshido.net The original challenges WERE "anything goes." The result was the same.

Duels to the death have been illegal in the civilized world for some time now.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Unless you have trained these techniques at full speed and power against a resisting opponent who is fighting you at full speed and power, you haven't really trained them at all.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Show me the groin kicks, the throat strikes, spine strikes, Adam Apple tears, breaking the fingers etc. (you know, the things you actually mentioned) practiced at full speed and power against resisting opponents who are fighting you at full speed and power.

So, then, almost nobody in history actually had the combat versions of any skill. Because the amount of time any individual spends actually fighting, which you consider to be the only thing that counts toward gaining such a skill, is miniscule compared to the amount of time they spend training.


I don't really buy into a lot of the woo, but your requirements for having combat versions of skills are too harsh to be usable outside of an extremely cinematic campaign.

[Kage2020]

Oh, wow. There's a lot of... "stuff" going on here.

As people have been throwing down the cards of "what is martial arts" let me say the following. Also, totally, I'm not an expert.

I've been in martial arts for the past 37 years. Most of that has been in TKD because, well, that's just been my journey. During those years I've also trained in Karate, Aikido, Kaze Arashi Ryi, Wing Chun, BBJ, etc.

Expert in those? No. But martial arts are all about integration.

With that said, I'm not a pugilist. There's a reason that I'm called "Mr Picky" when it comes to the performance of techniques and their interpretation (which is a whole big deal!).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Show me the groin kicks, the throat strikes, spine strikes, Adam Apple tears, breaking the fingers etc. (you know, the things you actually mentioned) practiced at full speed and power against resisting opponents who are fighting you at full speed and power.

No, you would'nt like to see those techniques practiced at full speed and power against any friend of yours. And nobody would.

Just consider something very simple: a punch to the throat. Nothing secret and magic. It is as simple, straight and forward as punching the jaws.

It is just forbidden in all full contact martial arts, everywhere around the world. As hundreds of other techniques. Can you explain me why, if those techniques are not supposed to be terribly effective?

This week, I'm in training. A summer karate course. And today, we will practice shiai-kumite with armor. Full speed, full strength, full contact against resisting opponent. We also do it.

But no matter. We're not here to talk about martial arts. We're here to talk about GURPS. And what is the most important, is that both of us would be happy with GURPS rules. I would consider my karate as Karate Combat. You would consider it as Karate Art and use the -3 penalty in a real fight for a character like me. Thus, both of us would be happy as GM. That is the most important.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Gollum

SNIP
But no matter. We're not here to talk about martial arts. We're here to talk about GURPS. And what is the most important, is that both of us would be happy with GURPS rules. I would consider my karate as Karate Combat. You would consider it as Karate Art and use the -3 penalty in a real fight for a character like me. Thus, both of us would be happy as GM. That is the most important.

Thanks, for that post. It´s absolutely about GURPS and having fun gaming GURPS - and nothing else.

I was also about to write something like Kage2020, Varyon or Farmer, and I second there posts, too.

[Kage2020]

Originally Posted by Gollum

But no matter. We're not here to talk about martial arts. We're here to talk about GURPS. And what is the most important, is that both of us would be happy with GURPS rules. I would consider my karate as Karate Combat. You would consider it as Karate Art and use the -3 penalty in a real fight for a character like me. Thus, both of us would be happy as GM. That is the most important.

Well said and, further, a great way to show how multiple perspectives can be integrated with GURPS rules.

[Gollum]

Thank you.

To broaden the topic, I often noticed that GURPS authors never reply in a thread about what is or what is not realistic. It is very wise. We all have a different conception of reality, so, they refuse to impose their own perception of it.

The most amazing with GURPS is that it can handle all of them, with the same rules!

[pawsplay]

Bruce Lee preferred the boxing punch to the karate punch. There has been a lot of research that suggest the boxing punch is mechanically superior. However, the karate punch is designed to focus on a smaller area, so it might indeed be preferable in some respects. I personally would try not to ever throw a "fair" punch in a fight because your own hand is vulnerable; my recommendation in a real life situation would be to use the blade of the hand on the nose, a nasty rabbit punch to the torso, and if you go for the head, try to do something unbalancing.

Yes, traditional karate can teach some rough moves, including attacks to soft parts of the body, like the throat. But I can probably do most of those things, and I probably don't even have 4 points in what GURPS calls the karate skill. Very often, a realistic fight comes down mostly to has been in some fights/has not been in so many fights, has learned some moves/has not learned some moves, and is willing to hurt people / is less willing to break, maim, and potentially concuss or kill people.

All this sport/art stuff is harder to quantify. I would say boxing is definitely a sport, and I could probably take a lot of amateur boxers. But I wouldn't want to mess with someone who is competitive. Because they aren't "only" boxers, they are also athletes, and they are probably people who know more moves and, in the clutch, are probably willing and able to hurt people. I would say boxing is probably more like a combat skill in that you get punched in the face a lot, which is real. But less so in that it has a lot of rules, and it focuses more on endurance and knockouts than disabling your opponent through injury. So I really appreciate that GURPS calls out sport and art versions of a skill, but I have never been fully satisfied with how it handles it. The -3 penalty often seems too harsh, but in other respects, there are versions of some skills that probably don't impart much combat ability as all beyond some speed and endurance.

I think realistically, most serious boxers learn Boxing Sport, but in the course of getting knocked around, and maybe some out of the ring brawling, and after getting hit with a foul now and then, and maybe doing one, they actually sink a few points into the combat version of the skill. In GURPS terms they are buying up the default. But in GURPS you should never actually do that, you're better off just raising the underlying skill and letting the other skill lag.

I think GURPS might kind of undersell what 2 points of Karate gets you. But what you get for 1 point might be about right... some footwork, maybe some more damaging situational moves. But if you were realistically training yourself for defense, you would probably focus a little on some footwork, and more on getting a few punches down really, really good. Which is sort of the opposite of what GURPS does. Realistic combat training in Karate should start with a faster, more accurate punch, and learning how to put some power into close range kicks. What to do, quickly, if someone really gets on top of you. Etc.

There is so much debate in the real world about what is effective (or even real) it's not surprising that GURPS doesn't make everyone happy. Still, I think there is still some room for improvement, holistically, with how GURPS does some things. There should be some aspect that is more of a skilling up, then just getting some slightly subtle benefits to 1 or 2 points of karate. I mean, if you are training in the combat version of the sport, you should have a fair amount of experience in avoiding a fairly serious punch, and a fair amount of experience in hitting a wiggly opponent who adheres only loosely to the concept of "stance."