Does the first point in Mental Strength get you anything?

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Mental Strength is an good buy for a DF Martial Artist with Chi Talent. Not otherwise.

Yes. It's most useful as a thing that effectively converts Chi Talent into added Will (for some purposes).

As others noted, there are a number of skills that seem to do nothing until a few points are invested. A close look usually shows something useful, though: Brawling gives access to certain abilities, Running allows complementary rolls for some physical feats, etc.

That's what Mental Strength is missing: something useful besides "replaces Will for such-and-such purposes". The best I've been able to think of is essentially what ericthered said: identify some attacks that are resisted only by (or better by) Mental Strength.

DF/DFRPG offer a good opportunity to introduce this idea. Horrid skulls and psychic wailer fungus deal straight-up mental damage that nothing resists. Let Mental Strength rolls resist the damage, and a character with the skill becomes something like a psychic bomb disposal specialist, withstanding the attacks long enough to find and destroy a horrid skull.

[edk926]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

But (obviously excluding abilities with a minimum cost of greater than one point), I can't think of others off-hand. The question of "what does one point in brawling get me?" is a perennial one on these boards, but it has the good answer of "access to techniques that don't have a DX default". As far as I can tell, the single point in Mental Strength does absolutely nothing.

Running is largely useless at just 1 point.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

+
But it's awkward that Will+0 costs 1 point with no real benefit and Will+>2 costs 4 points, making Will or Mind Shield a better deal if available (assuming no talent).

"If Available" is frequently overlooked.

Will is generally best but by default can't be raised above 20 without GM permission.

Mind Shield is generally better than Mental Strength but it's an exotic ability and your character may not be able to buy it.

Mental Strength usually has prereqs too but if you have those it may be the best you can do.

Mind Block is msot limited but requires no prerqs. It's an odd Skill but you can start right in on teaching yourself how to do it. I suspect that's what Batman did. :)

[tbone]

Originally Posted by edk926

Running is largely useless at just 1 point.

Also at the 2-pt level, since it's an Average skill. It does almost nothing until a 4-point purchase.

DFRPG adds DX-based Running rolls to bypass obstacles, and Will-based Running when boosting speed with Extra Effort. Those are good ideas, but again, there's no benefit below the 4-point level.

The game also suggests complementary rolls for Acrobatics, Climbing, Jumping, etc. whenever a running start would help. That makes Running a bit useful even at the 1-point level (assuming your HT is good).

In the same way, letting Mental Strength act as a complementary roll for some non-Will-based task would make it potentially useful even at the 1-point level. But I don't off-hand have a good idea.

(In any case: GURPS players, do take a peek at DFRPG for a more useful Running skill that PCs should appreciate.)

[JulianLW]

The Psientist talent from Power-Ups 3 has this:

"Alternative Benefit: +1/level to self-control rolls for mental disadvantages (natural or induced) if you make a successful Meditation, Mental Strength, or Mind Block roll first. Doing this too often is still bad roleplaying (see Self-Control Rolls, p. B121); this simply makes such attempts easier when it’s vital to try."

This benefit could potentially make 1 point in Mental Strength very valuable.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by edk926

Running is largely useless at just 1 point.

For much the same reason. The obvious things to gain from practicing running as a skill are Extra Move or Fit, but those are advantages, so 3e didn't like them being learned, hence...

Frankly all the movement skills (Hiking, Running, Swimming, Skiing, Skating) suffer from that. The most generally useful thing you'd expect to gain from practice is getting faster, and that was out of bounds, so you get skills that somehow fail to provide the main benefit you'd expect from learning it.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Frankly all the movement skills (Hiking, Running, Swimming, Skiing, Skating) suffer from that.

At least the last three are justified that you wouldn't have them at DX or HT by default.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

At least the last three are justified that you wouldn't have them at DX or HT by default.

Hiking has a "conventional" default to Attribute and you'll roll against that rather than straight HT for most purposes.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Frankly all the movement skills (Hiking, Running, Swimming, Skiing, Skating) suffer from that. The most generally useful thing you'd expect to gain from practice is getting faster, and that was out of bounds, so you get skills that somehow fail to provide the main benefit you'd expect from learning it.

While many of them work poorly, increased speed isn't what I'd expect from most of those skills.

• Hiking: I don't expect a good hiker to be faster on the short term, I would expect them to be able to keep hiking for longer. It suffers from the unskilled rules being excessively generous so there's not much room for improvement without being absurd.
• Swimming: this is mostly the ability to use your swim speed, though the rules for drowning are a bit off.
• Skiing and Skating probably shouldn't be skills at all; GURPS could use a system for non-leveled proficiencies.

[ravenfish]

Per the Basic Set, a quick contest of Running skill (at default if necessary, presumably) determines who outruns whom in cases of equal Move, so a single point there could be quite useful. Likewise, a successful Hiking roll boosts overland speed by 20%, and a single point raising the skill from default will substantially improve the odds of achieving that.