Rules you ignore/alter.

[Otaku]

First things first, let me be clear that yes, I am confused by some of the GURPS jargon and terminology when it comes to whether an trait or ability is, by default, supposed to be imperceptible.

Second... am I wrong that it isn't generally understood that the core rules (Basic Set Character and Basic Set Campaigns) are themselves imperfect? No, I'm not knocking the hardwork and skill that went into them! I just mean that I've encountered comments like "If we would have had the time..." or "If we would have had the space..." how certain bits to those books would be different.

I wanted to clarify my previous post, because some comments make me wonder if I experienced a horrible communication failure there. It's main points were

1. Be careful when quoting related rulings, as it is easy to take them out of context.
2. I am not seeing a clear answer of "Yeah, DR cannot be perceived by default.

Please note that, with regards to the second point, I am not saying that a normal human can look at a character with the DR Advantage and go "Oh, so he's got DR 5." What I mean is that if you purchase some form of Damage Resistance, it is not imperceptible without the appropriate Enhancements.

If I thought there was a "one size fits all" answer at the beginning of the conversation, I know there should not be one now... because some Physical Advantages are clearly intended to be visible by default, while others are not. No one is, for example, arguing that High Pain Threshold ought to be something a normal person gets a Perception roll to detect through simply looking at, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching a person.

On the other hand, I would think we all agree that, by default, if you have Extra Arms, they are most definitely something other people can see, touch, taste, maybe smell and hear. On of the guiding rules of thumb for GURPS is that you get what you pay for... and I almost mentioned this in my previous post, but in a setting where innate DR is not Visible, then it isn't Visible. I don't think that described a good "generic" default, myself. Which brings me to some of the more specific comments... but I'm putting that in a separate post, because more and more of them kept happening while I worked on this answer. It kind of took me a while (a few hours), since I was looking stuff up while typing.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Powers 163-164 asserts that passive abilities or abilities not currently in use can never be detected without the use of special senses. That is rather obviously not the case for things like armor plating or an overt mounted weapon. Humanocentrism striking again?

No, the problem is a bit more structural: GURPS doesn't adjust costs based on how obvious an ability is. If characters A and B both have ST 16, but character A is 6'5" and 250 lb and gets that strength the normal way, while character B is 5'2" and 120 lb and gets that strength because they're actually a cyborg with muscles replaced with exotic myomers, there's no change in price. DR is no different.

You could certainly place house rules that abilities are by default visible and you have to pay extra to make them subtle, but there's no reason that should be limited to DR.

[Otaku]

Part 2 (since I'm double-posting):

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Have you ever actually looked at the human characters with DR on their character sheet?

From p. B46.

Normal humans cannot purchase DR at all.

That means a human with DR is not normal within the "generic" setting of GURPS. Even just being sufficiently cinematic can undo this, it also enables several other Advantages and even Attribute levels that would normally be superhuman, but aren't in a such a setting. I only reviewed Basic Set: Characters, but none of the human characters have Damage Resistance as an Advantage. If it is from another book I own, please just tell me where to look.

I'm pretty sure something does have an exception to this... but even then, I'm not sure if it supposed to include stuff like "I am a mundane, non-cinematic human and have baby soft skin, but it also has DR1." without also being an abstraction along the lines of "Technically I'm hurt, but my character's formidable will power and constitution mean attacks effectively do less damage to me!"

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It isn't visible unless it's something like a switchable forcefield. (Except in the sense that it's visible that you aren't taking damage. If you had low signature DR then I'm guessing that it would be one in which you bruise and cut as if you have no protection but the damage isn't real which is kind of an interesting idea.)

Why are Switchable Force Fields visible by default, but non-Switchable ones are not? I'm trying to be straightforward in this entire post, but let me be clear: if this should have been obvious, I managed to miss it!

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So a Warbot or a crocodile has no visible armor?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The point. Missing it. Yes, you can see that a warbot is shiny and a crocodile has scales. So what? How is that a limitation for them? Getting no signature on an innate attack lets you attack without anyone figuring out where the attack came from or even noticing there was an attack without examining the victim. What would getting no signature on your DR let you do? With it's DR a Warbot looks like a killer robot. Remove its skin and it still looks like a killer robot.

Is he, or are you? Yes, I have asked myself that, hence my previous post, and some of the things I've asked in this one.

Ulzgoroth is pointing out that an obviously armored "warbot" or a creature with natural armor (like a crocodile) don't have the "Visible" Limitation on their DR, but that they're examples of how this aspect of Damage Resistance functions by default. "Visible" is another case-by-case trait, and by default, our argument is that Damage Resistance is... well... visible in some capacity.

Re-reading things, I'm not sure if Low Signature/No Signature actually can be applied to Damage Resistance (the actual entry on p. B106 only talks about attacks). Powers didn't clear things up, either, though it tried. I'd elaborate, but I'm afraid that'll turn into another tangent.

If Damage Resistance can have "Low Signature", I'd assume it would means a character that doesn't already know it is there needs to make a Perception roll with the appropriate modifiers for the situation. Which includes the extremes of "No Roll required" if it should still be obvious, or no roll allowed if enough penalties are stacked up. No Signature would mean, without a special (non-standard) means of detection (or prior knowledge), it appears the object has no DR. In both cases, this may also affect how the DR interacts with attacks; at the point of impact, there may not be as much to see/hear/etc. as their normally would be.

A crocodile with its DR modified by these traits is clearly unnatural... so let's replace it with a Super. This is one of the many ways you get the classic "toughness" of many superheroes/villains. How is this advantageous enough to warrant it being an Enhancement? Maybe it is like the Switchable example above, meaning you might want to take an appropriate Limitation alongside so that is balances out, or you know you'll be in situations where it can come into play.

With a "warbot", maybe it looks like its outer covering is missing, or that said outer shell is made of cheaper/weaker-looking materials than they actually are. Low Signature means a simple inspection - who knows if you'll have time for that - would let you know, but you may be mistaken if you're in the thick of it. No Signature means, unless you already know it is there, there's no way to really anticipate it. Which may call for a Fright Check when it shrugs off that attack that should have done at least something to it, but not only doesn't appear to have hurt it, but didn't even make a "thunk" or feel right.

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, the problem is a bit more structural: GURPS doesn't adjust costs based on how obvious an ability is. If characters A and B both have ST 16, but character A is 6'5" and 250 lb and gets that strength the normal way, while character B is 5'2" and 120 lb and gets that strength because they're actually a cyborg with muscles replaced with exotic myomers, there's no change in price. DR is no different.

You could certainly place house rules that abilities are by default visible and you have to pay extra to make them subtle, but there's no reason that should be limited to DR.

Except the rules do care, depending on the specifics. I can't speak for others, but I know I'm not telling you that you cannot state that, for a particular setting, DR doesn't affect how things look. I'm saying that doesn't seem to jibe with the RAW, though at this point I think the RAW may be confused (or just comes across as confusing) itself.

We have traits like Gigantism, Dwarfism, Fat, and Skinny for Normal Humans because how something works often matters. You can ignore them in settings where they aren't binding, like a campaign based on One Piece... but if we're playing a realistic game and you want your character to look like a stereotypical short, skinny nerd there will probably be a cap on his allowed ST. Not a penalty, but "No, even though I'm allowing ST16, he's not allowed it with that physique in this game."

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not bluddy likely Your enemies are going to attack with the weapons they have.

How stupid are these enemies? Nobody opens up on an MBT with a pistol. And it's very unusual circumstances indeed when you try to shoot some guy in the face with an ATGM 'because that's what you have'.

Choice of whether to fight at all, choice of weapons, choice of targets, and choice of aimpoints can all change dramatically based on what defenses are expected. And having badly wrong expectations can easily change an ambush from a murder to a suicide.

Speaking of aimpoints, clues about the coverage of specialized DR are rather key. You're certainly not going to try to stab a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle in the back, and you're probably not going to try to brain a Pachycephalosaurus with a stick either. Being able to see where natural armor is and isn't is both a well-established trope and to some extent implied by the ability to target chinks in armor.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It's not like "Visible" means "Calculable". The crocodile has a DR of what, one? two?. The mutant crocodile-man known as Crocodevil from my random supers/horror idea has skin that looks exactly the same, except he's DR 8. Godzilla doesn't look much different texture wise. He's got DR 1000, Nor can you assume just because you're looking at a robot with metal skin that you can't shoot through it. The real way you find out whether your target is bullet-proof is to actually shoot it and see how much of a ding you make. Now I'm not going to say that "looking like a rock monster" isn't worth points. But I am going to say that the point value is better represented with disadvantages like Appearance, Unnatural or Supernatural Features, and Social Stigma Freak.

I think looking like a rock monster has very practical consequences other than making you stand out in a crowd. Which it might not even do so much if rock monsters are a major demographic.

Speaking of which, consider Ankh-Morpork. Ankh-Morpork is a place where motivated people know fairly well how to murder a sapient, animate, and typically rather large stone. It's also a place where Carrot's armored jock strap won more than one fight by viciously ambushing somebody's foot.

[vicky_molokh]

[MOD]

EVERYONE

Since David Johnston2 was asked not to participate in this thread, please do not address further questions to David Johnston2.


[/MOD]

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I only reviewed Basic Set: Characters, but none of the human characters have Damage Resistance as an Advantage. If it is from another book I own, please just tell me where to look.

Supers applies DR without any difference in pricing whether it's invisible (like the Archetype or Rubberman templates) or obvious (like the Blaster's flame shield or the Man Plus's super-chainmail).

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

[MOD]

EVERYONE

Since David Johnston2 was asked not to participate in this thread, please do not address further questions to David Johnston2.


[/MOD]

My apologies, it was not deliberate. In fact, I didn't see Andrew Hackard's comment until five minutes ago. He was post #120 in this thread, and one of my posts is #121, and it went uponly two minutes after his... and it was a post I kept re-writing as more and more comments went up while I was typing. I was even going to risk a double-post (I thought that was permitted here, but maybe I'm wrong), because I ended up making a truly massive one while trying to "catch up"... but then I noticed Anthony's post, plus I needed to tweak a few other things, so the second half became #123. On my end, Post #120 is the bottom of page 12, so even though I was reloading the page to check for newer posts, once I made Post #121 it jumped to page 13.

This is not an excuse, merely an explanation; I was trying to refresh to make sure I didn't miss any posts, and I failed. Should I delete (or at least, rewrite) my last two posts, so they don't reference David?

[Andrew Hackard]

Otaku, just let it drop. Don't even reply to this note. Thanks.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Here's what Kromm had to state on the matter:

Something like "I can't give blood, the needle can't penetrate anywhere except my eyeball" could be a pretty big inconvenience with baseline non-modified DR though.

So I read "never inconveniences" by Kromm to be in respect to the two things he mentioned. Which makes me wonder if the 'crippling' adjective is JUST meant for the bulk, or also for "appearance issues". IE a crippling appearance issue might be if DR lowered your attractiveness, or made you stand out as non-human.

That might be the difference between "switchable DR 1 that turns me into a guy with reptile scales" and "always-on DR 1 where I just look like a grizzled tough human"?

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

See also the uFAQ compilation on trait visibility.

Ah, there's a useful Kromm-by-vicky quote here which I think solves the discrepency:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Kromm later elaborates further:

I guess I just wasn't aware until reading this that changing passive abilities into active ones made them visible. Ulzoroth mentioned Powers 163, and taking a look at "Detecting Abilities"...

Active uses are always detectable with vision, hearing, touch, and/or smell,

This creates a problem with PK's PAWS force fields though: since Sorcery includes Costs Fatigue, it already turns DR from passive (undetectable via normal senses) to active (detectable via normal senses) so why does it get to take the Visible limitation to represent being translucent? Shouldn't it ALREADY be translucent as a result of being changed into an active ability, per P163's Detecting Abilities?

So I'm not 100% sure that "active DR" would always need to be visible, but if it couldn't be discerned by sight then it sounds like it must by discernable by at least one other sense like touch/smell/hearing. "passive uses are only discernable using special senses." definitely sounds like "invisible by default" is the case for DR though. I just didn't really process how sorcery changing it into active abilities would change that.

I guess that's one major drawback to fishing Temporary Disadvantages for discounts, since that requires making it switchable, you'd also have to potentially take into account No Sig enhancements, requiring more TD to offset and bring price down to be worthwhile.

Do you think that might work the other way around, where normally-visible Innate Attacks become invisible if made into a passive attack like an aura?

Originally Posted by Otaku

Why are Switchable Force Fields visible by default, but non-Switchable ones are not? I'm trying to be straightforward in this entire post, but let me be clear: if this should have been obvious, I managed to miss it!

I can't find anything in Basic Set indicating it, seems to have been added via 'Detecting Abilities' in P163.

Another interesting thing to bring up here is the Spines ability...

It's passive by default. Does that mean you can't see a porcupine has quills, or that porcupines have the Switchable enhancement for it, which do make them detectable when the ability is on?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

So I'm not 100% sure that "active DR" would always need to be visible, but if it couldn't be discerned by sight then it sounds like it must by discernable by at least one other sense like touch/smell/hearing. "passive uses are only discernable using special senses." definitely sounds like "invisible by default" is the case for DR though. I just didn't really process how sorcery changing it into active abilities would change that.

I've always played such that passive abilities (spines, DR, claws) are noticeable but not necessarily obvious. That means you could look for it, test for it, and examine for it. Scaly guy has a skin condition, but you can't tell if that's worth DR without some additional tests. Conversely, if you have experience with other scaly skin you could guesstimate if it's like something you know.

Adding visible makes it more obvious and easier to detect. Adding low signature makes it harder to detect and figure out.

The bottom line is you don't look normal if you have lots of DR. It has a noticeable effect that sets you apart even if people don't realize they are looking at the manifestation of DR.