Learning combat

[Densar]

Hi,

I'm trying to (re)learn GURPS combat. I'm limiting myself to what is in the Basic Set for now, and would like to build a solid understanding of it. To start, I created for myself a cheat sheet, as well as an example using a simple character (based on one of the examples in 3rd edition, migrated to 4th edition).

I've uploaded both the cheat sheet and the combat example here.

I don't know if anyone has a bit of time and wouldn't mind helping me by reviewing these and pointing out the various mistakes that I made so that I can improve?

Although I suspect that the character(s) could have used better strategies, for now, I'm just trying to make sure I don't make mistakes in the way I do combat so I kept it very simple.

Thanks,
-D

[johndallman]

When writing your own crib-sheets, it can be useful to have separate ones for melee and ranged combat. It makes them both simpler, at the expense of a little duplication.

Did you deliberately omit the +50% injury for cutting damage when A scores a hit in round 2? The same happens when A scores a hit in round 4.

The first rules mistake I've spotted in the combat example is in Round 4, where C rolls a 10 on her attack, at a -3 penalty, and is claimed to miss. Since she has skill 16, and thus effective skill 13 with the penalty, she should have hit on that roll.

The first tactical mistake is by A in round 4: all-out attacking when you have no armour, against an opponent with no shock penalty, is a bad idea.

[Densar]

Originally Posted by johndallman

When writing your own crib-sheets, it can be useful to have separate ones for melee and ranged combat. It makes them both simpler, at the expense of a little duplication.

Yes, I've not really tackled ranged combat yet, but that makes a lot of sense. There are quite a lot of other options too in combat (like moving and hiding and vehicles and such). I'll probably tackle using things like rapier/swords next and movement/distance, and then ranged combat.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Did you deliberately omit the +50% injury for cutting damage when A scores a hit in round 2? The same happens when A scores a hit in round 4.

I completely forgot about this. I'll have to find the reference and add to my cheat sheet so I don't forget in the future.

Originally Posted by johndallman

The first rules mistake I've spotted in the combat example is in Round 4, where C rolls a 10 on her attack, at a -3 penalty, and is claimed to miss. Since she has skill 16, and thus effective skill 13 with the penalty, she should have hit on that roll.

You are right. For some reason, in my mind, she had a skill of 12. I'll correct this and maybe just fudge a higher dice roll so as not to change too much of the rest of the example (although I'll have to make sure it is also not a critical miss/failure when I do that.)

Originally Posted by johndallman

The first tactical mistake is by A in round 4: all-out attacking when you have no armour, against an opponent with no shock penalty, is a bad idea.

Yes. I figured that she was getting a little desperate. I also wondered if doing all-out defense whenever she had shock would have been a better approach? Her dodge and parry were decent enough to help prevent more shock and then her attacks would have more change of succeeding the next turn...

Thanks so much for the feedback!

[Densar]

Also, in this case, probably better to try to do impaling damage rather than cut damage with a knife since that is a x2 multiplier instead of 1.5... Anyway, they wanted to slash and cut rather than thrust and impale. Their prerogative, of course :-)

[Densar]

When doing an all-out attack with a knife, using the option to do double attacks, is it ok to first do a swing (cut) and them a thrust (imp) for the second? I would think so since they don't specify otherwise in the book. Seems very cinematic to do that, particularly when the last attack takes care of the opponent...

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Densar

I completely forgot about this. I'll have to find the reference and add to my cheat sheet so I don't forget in the future.

Page B379, but reading "Damage and Injury", pp. 377-381 will make things clearer.

Originally Posted by Densar

Yes. I figured that she was getting a little desperate. I also wondered if doing all-out defense whenever she had shock would have been a better approach?

It is, under most circumstances. You're probably starting to notice that GURPS combat is quite deadly: a couple of knife hits have C significantly wounded. Two things to appreciate:

It's much easier to get someone to collapse unconscious than it is to kill them. They start having to make HT rolls every second to stay conscious when they reach 0 HP; they don't have to roll to avoid dying until they reach -1xHP, and they don't automatically die until they reach -5xHP.

The best way to do combat for realistic GURPS characters involves sneaking up on opponents, ambushing them, and otherwise getting unfair advantages. Wading into fights, D&D style, will get you into trouble unless you're highly skilled, well-equipped and have a fair grasp of the appropriate tactics.

Originally Posted by Densar

When doing an all-out attack with a knife, using the option to do double attacks, is it ok to first do a swing (cut) and them a thrust (imp) for the second? I would think so since they don't specify otherwise in the book. Seems very cinematic to do that, particularly when the last attack takes care of the opponent...

The rules don't forbid it. The GM certainly can. While GURPS combat is less abstract than most TTRPGs, that kind of detail depends on the group and the game style.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Densar

When doing an all-out attack with a knife, using the option to do double attacks, is it ok to first do a swing (cut) and them a thrust (imp) for the second? I would think so since they don't specify otherwise in the book. Seems very cinematic to do that, particularly when the last attack takes care of the opponent...

It's explicitly allowed for a Rapid Strike (see "What is a rapid strike?", Martial Arts p 127). The expanded text for All-Out Attack implies that performing a thrust to a cut is allowed, and I can't see why the reverse would not be allowed.

It doesn't even sound cinematic to me. The fighter slashed with the knife until he met resistance, then stabbed forward.

Each attack interacts with DR and wounding modifiers separately, of course.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Densar

To start, I created for myself a cheat sheet, as well as an example using a simple character (based on one of the examples in 3rd edition, migrated to 4th edition).

I've uploaded both the cheat sheet and the combat example here.

I don't know if anyone has a bit of time and wouldn't mind helping me by reviewing these and pointing out the various mistakes that I made so that I can improve?

In example combat 1 (Corrected v2), on Artemisia's second turn, she gets a critical hit and does maximum damage. As she is swinging with a knife, her damage is 1d-1. You have her inflicting 3 damage that ends up at 4 injury with 1.5x cutting multiplier and no DR. However, GURPS uses 6 sided dice, and the damage should have been 5, for 7 injury. Her Clone would have taken a major wound and needed to roll against HT or be knocked down and stunned.

Both Artemisia and the Clone should be Retreating (Basic 377), for a +3 on their Dodges, as well as possibly making Acrobatic Dodges for another +2. Possibly not necessary for a simple fight, but something to keep in mind for the future.

[Densar]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

In example combat 1 (Corrected v2), on Artemisia's second turn, she gets a critical hit and does maximum damage. As she is swinging with a knife, her damage is 1d-1. You have her inflicting 3 damage that ends up at 4 injury with 1.5x cutting multiplier and no DR. However, GURPS uses 6 sided dice, and the damage should have been 5, for 7 injury. Her Clone would have taken a major wound and needed to roll against HT or be knocked down and stunned.

You are right, of course. This will change things quite a bit at that point. I was trying to minimize things a bit to keep the rest of the combat similar but I did it wrong due to the max damage -- there is no leeway there. I guess she will have to pass her HT roll. :-). Thanks.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Both Artemisia and the Clone should be Retreating (Basic 377), for a +3 on their Dodges, as well as possibly making Acrobatic Dodges for another +2. Possibly not necessary for a simple fight, but something to keep in mind for the future.

Retreating would certainly have helped. No reason not too, unless you are blocked. You can only move away one step, but it would boost their dodges significantly as you pointed out.

I also thought about acrobatic dodge, but that seems more risky, since it can give a penalty. From looking online, though, it seems that the odds of rolling 13 or less on a 3d6 is 83%, which seems pretty good and high enough to warrant the risk...

[Densar]

I put up a corrected version (of the corrected version ;-).

I'll probably do a second version of this combat but add some of the recommendations to show how more experienced fighters in the same situation might do.

There seems to be a lot of things to think about when running combat (having a cheat sheet should help me a lot, but the sheet won't contain everything, of course), which I find super interesting actually. I'm assuming that the more you do it, the quicker thinks get and the less likely you are to make mistakes as part of combat (and once you are used to the level of rules that I am using, you can expand them with even more of the rules in the basic set and in things like Martial Arts?) I would think that the key would be preparation: making sure that you have all of the combat-related info for each PC/NPC done, including any modifiers due to advantages/disadvantages/etc...