Where do Geases come from?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

You're evil. I like you. (Also, Symphony imposing Debt to balance scales is, indeed, quite a nice and tidy little premise to work from...)

Thank you. I do it for the players, of course. Those pure, innocent players... :)

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Jason

Thank you. I do it for the players, of course. Those pure, innocent players... :)

Was that "pure" or "poor"? *evil grin*

[Acolyte]

This was a very interesting topic I missed, so BLAM! Resurrected!

First off, is rolling for Discord actually that common? I have never done so, instead choosing appropriate ones.

It will take me some time, but I WILL come up with a plausible in-game reason why it should be assumed that a "naturally occurring" Geas will only be owed to someone selfish enough to make good use of it...

Here's my take: dissonance is a very, very bad, temporary problem. Converting it into Discord is turning into a permanent problem that is only very bad. As an analogy, think about an animal caught in a trap. That's dissonance. It can stay there and wait for the hunter, or it can gnaw off its leg and wander off--that's the Discord, carving off a piece of yourself to otherwise improve the situation.

Pouring your dissonance into a Geas Discord is hacking off a piece of your self control and handing it to someone else. I would rule that the Geas could only be owed to someone with opposing (or at least orthogonal) goals, because giving it to someone with the same goals isn't really giving up anything. And if you're not giving up something, you're not converting your dissonance.

---

I don't think that Geases are in any way a Lilith-only (or -focused) thing. I think Geases existed before her and (should she die) would exist after her. What makes her special is her special ability to manipulate them (easily explainable as a "Word-bound Uberattunement"), specifically the ability to create beings which can also manipulate them. There are plenty of Ethereals that can utilize Geases (given the stories; the faerie bazaar thing was a really inspired idea, Jason), and any Superior worth his salt can do so. Access to the Lilim resonance (or Bright) isn't really a precondition in my mind.

What is more interesting to me is plumbing WHY Lilith has this special ability, since handwaving it into her Princely Coronet isn't exactly pleasing to me. Is it some weird human overlap (her human soul is less plugged into the Symphony)? My personal guess is that it has more to do with the bizarre circumstances of the Eden experiment--she was created for the experiment with a God-level Geas wrapped into every fiber of her being, and when she said no it was stripped away. Since we know the stripping process rearranges other things, perhaps it rearranged her in a way nothing had been before, has been since, or will be again unless God gets a lot more active.

[DBloch2012]

It looks like, in the Core Rules, that a Geas was meant to be more universal at first. A promise to a Celestial (by a Celestial?) that could only be removed by a Superior. And then came Lilith, and her Lilim, and it became their sole Resonance with the Symphony.

Oh, and somehow it's listed as a "Ethereal Discord" even though it only involves Celestials. It would be far more interesting if, say, a human could Geas himself; not only to Lilith, but to any Angel or Demon. Of course, because the humans in this game cause no Resonance or Dissonance with the Symphony, I do not really understand how they can fall into Dischord with the Symphony in any way, shape, or form.

Which is unfortunate. A Geas is a great tool for Demons who want to change the Symphony. It's the cliched "deal with the Devil," and a more insidious, non-violent approach to spreading evil to the world by Geasing souls. Those who cannot, or will not, owe the Geas before they die? Well, we all know where they go. It's a great way to make sure someone meets their Fate.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Of course, because the humans in this game cause no Resonance or Dissonance with the Symphony, I do not really understand how they can fall into Dischord with the Symphony in any way, shape, or form.

Humans don't acquire Discord -- this is something elucidated in later supplements that focus more on human characters, such as the Corporeal Player's Guide. Humans instead have Disadvantages, which share qualities with the Discords of the same name, but with one big difference: a human can overcome Disadvantages or grow out of them. A celestial is stuck with Discord until it's removed.

That said, Geases are a noted exception; humans are bound just as surely as any celestial unless they summon up the needed Will. And yes, part of what makes Lilim special is that they *can* extend a Geas to a mortal who's willing to deal. I suspect that one reason it's an Ethereal Discord is that it's a trait of the mind... you're making a decision to be bound based on what you think to be best at the time.

A Geas is a great tool for Demons who want to change the Symphony. It's the cliched "deal with the Devil," and a more insidious, non-violent approach to spreading evil to the world by Geasing souls.

VERY true. So true, in fact, that I once came up with a non-canon theory as to Lilith's true nature based on this mysterious power ... http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=58880

That said, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you can fall to your Fate directly through a Geas. On some level, the Fate-clinching action has to have been your choice, not compelled. That said, the Geas can certainly set up the preconditions for you to make the choice that seals your Fate. (Evil Grin)

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

VERY true. So true, in fact, that I once came up with a non-canon theory as to Lilith's true nature based on this mysterious power ... http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=58880

Can't believe I missed that thread. That's brilliant. (And ignore the following if you're a player in one of my games.)

Spoiler:  

I may use that version of "Lucifer as Lilith" in my non-canonic game in which Gebbeleth secretly "usurps" Lucifer. Good thing Lucifer had a back-up identity from years back to take on in the meantime ... I had been wondering what he was up to!

[DBloch2012]

I have the exact same theory about Yves on the opposite side. Perhaps we should collaborate on an interesting, non-canonical campaign? I have other ideas, too . . . >_>

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

I have the exact same theory about Yves on the opposite side. Perhaps we should collaborate on an interesting, non-canonical campaign? I have other ideas, too . . . >_>

I must know more of this theory. I welcome you to co-opt the thread or message me as you see fit. :)

[DBloch2012]

Well, the theory goes like this: Yves is actually God himself.

God uses the Yves avatar to go out into the world (Celestial, Ethereal, or Corporeal; as far as I know these are the only worlds) and talk with the locals to get a hang on what is happening without revealing himself.

The fact that Yves knows just about everything God would leads me to suspect the story of Yves being made before any other Angel is a cover-up. And we cannot forget the fact Yves belongs with no Choir, unlike every other Angel.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Well, the theory goes like this: Yves is actually God himself.

God uses the Yves avatar to go out into the world (Celestial, Ethereal, or Corporeal; as far as I know these are the only worlds) and talk with the locals to get a hang on what is happening without revealing himself.

The fact that Yves knows just about everything God would leads me to suspect the story of Yves being made before any other Angel is a cover-up. And we cannot forget the fact Yves belongs to no Choir like every other Angel.

I could see it working! It's not far off from the canon explanation in Superiors 1 (which ties in to the canon explanation of Kronos in Heaven & Hell, I think) ... but I'll not spoil those for you if you haven't read them yet. ;)