Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by dsal

Since the SHVY suffers a 1:1 attack when it rams, I think the situation you're describing would correspond to a "D" result (which results from the crew needing time to recover from the impact). In the case of an "NE" I believe the SHVY should be able to ram again if it has the movement points ("no effect" should mean what it says).

I concur with dsal here.

The SHVY caveat can be "the SHVY is like an ogre," instead of "the SHVY is special in this other way, too."

That 1:1 is a severe disincentive. An X is the end of the SHVY. A D means that disabled SHVY will not be shooting or ramming anything next turn, and will draw a lot of fire if there are enemy units around to take advantage.

[offsides]

OK, I see your points and don't disagree. In fact, I think that the solution to this is actually even simpler. Just remove the parentheses at the end of the first sentence of 6.07.1 (see 6.05, 6.08). By eliminating the callout, you simply state that SHVYs ram as though they were a Mk I, which implies that other than anything explicitly stated differently in the rest of the section, all other 6.XX rules that apply to a Mk I also apply to a SHVY. Meaning that it has the same rules other than the addition of suffering a 1-1 attack on itself when it's the attacker, and the rule about mounted infantry dying automatically rather than by die roll*. Which is probably what the intent was all along. (In fact, that actually makes the first sentence of the second paragraph of 6.07.1 unnecessary, though the second paragraph still is.)

* Upon re-reading 6.01.2, it's clear as mud exactly what's being discussed. Vehicles that ram while carrying INF don't suffer a die roll against them EXCEPT for SHVYs, therefore there is no die roll to affect the vehicle and INF per 5.11.2 (and said die roll is irrelevant for SHVYs as the INF die automatically). Not to mention INF riding on non-Ogres are explicitly covered in each of 6.07.X. So 6.01.2 only applies to INF riding Ogres. Which do suffer N dice of damage to treads, but there's no attack roll to apply to the INF. So the rule doesn't really make any sense. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, especially since I would say that INF riding on an Ogre should be a bit better protected than those riding on smaller vehicles - especially the big Ogres. Perhaps each squad takes a 1-2 attack with separate die rolls, giving a 33% chance of killing each individual squad? It's a corner case in any event, but the rule as written doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something?

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by offsides

* Upon re-reading 6.01.2, it's clear as mud exactly what's being discussed. Vehicles that ram while carrying INF don't suffer a die roll against them EXCEPT for SHVYs, therefore there is no die roll to affect the vehicle and INF per 5.11.2 (and said die roll is irrelevant for SHVYs as the INF die automatically).

There was a long discussion earlier about how to handle INF riding ramming Armor. I'll have to see if I can find it (it eludes me at the moment). That might give some clarity to the intent.

[Oliver Upshaw]

“3.02.2 Heavy Weapons Teams (HWT). Specialist battlesuit
squads. An infantry squad armed with a portable one-shot missile.
Each Heavy Weapons Team may make a single “heavy weapon
attack” at Attack Strength 3 and Range 4. Once this attack is made,
flip the counter to its “Fired” side. The heavy weapon may not be
fired while mounted (5.11.1) or on the turn the Heavy Weapons
Team dismounts (this is an exception to 5.11.3). The heavy weapon
attack does not double in overruns.

A Heavy Weapons Team has an inherent Attack 1 at Range 1,
which can be used both before and after firing the heavy weapon.
Treat this like a regular infantry attack. This inherent attack cannot
be used in any Fire Phase or overrun fire round where the heavy
weapon attack is used.

Heavy Weapons Teams are deployed in special scenarios.
Players can mutually agree to allow Heavy Weapons Teams in other
scenarios, by trading regular infantry for Heavy Weapons Teams at a
2 to 1 ratio; for example, 10 regular infantry might be exchanged for
five Heavy Weapons Teams. As specialist infantry, Heavy Weapons
Teams are worth double victory points (i.e., 4 VP per squad). Other
than as mentioned above, a Heavy Weapons Team should be treated
as infantry in all other circumstances.

Heavy Weapons Teams may re-arm from either a stocked CP
depot, or a Truck or Hovertruck carrying “Heavy Weapons Team
missiles.” They need to begin and spend one full turn in the same
hex as the reload source without firing. Each additional missile
would cost 1 VP each for unit selection and victory calculation. A
Heavy Weapons Team may carry only one heavy weapon missile at a
time. A Truck or Hovertruck may carry up to 10 missiles, or up to five
if a squad rides in the Truck at the same time. Players may receive
one regular Truck for “free” per 10 missiles (or fraction thereof)
purchased, if they so desire. A Hovertruck would cost 2 VP each for
unit selection and victory calculation (in addition to the missile
costs). Reduce the number of “free” wheeled Trucks available by
one for each Hovertruck purchased. Armor units and other types
of infantry may not carry heavy weapon missiles due to the large
protective casing within which they are transported. Heavy weapon
missiles may not be attacked individually, but are destroyed if the
Truck or CP is destroyed.

3.02.3 Marine Heavy Weapons Teams (HWTM). Specialist
battlesuit squads. Marine Heavy Weapons Teams are treated for all
purposes like regular Heavy Weapons Teams, except that they move
and attack equally well on land and water, and have double defense
in water hexes. The heavy weapon attack is uniquely designed to be
effective in both air and water. Marine Heavy Weapons Teams may
use their heavy weapon attack on either surface or submerged units
without penalty. Unlike regular Heavy Weapons Teams, they may
re-arm from Hovertrucks on the water, as per the re-arming rules
above. Marine Heavy Weapons Teams cost 6 VP per squad, (or 3× the
cost of regular infantry.)”

The above rules are copied from the Battlefields Rulebook posted here at SJGames.

They raise a couple of questions.

1. As Marine Heavy Weapons can be used against submerged targets and normal Heavy Weapons can not be used against submerged targets, do you need to keep track of the reloads separately if you buy both types of HW Teams? Or is the extra capacity assumed to be part of the suits and thus a HW Reload will work for either type of HW Team?

2. Rule 3.02.02 does not have a note about HW Teams not being able to rearm from Hover Trucks on the water. Rule 3.02.03 says that Marine HW teams can rearm from Hover Trucks on the water unlike regular HW Teams. Rule 3.02.02 should have this note added to it as it might be missed by someone that does not read up on the Marine HW teams.

3. Also “on the water” should be better defined. I am assuming that if a Hover Truck is carrying a HW Team and some reload missiles while on the water that the HW Team can pick up some reloads. But that if the HW Team is on the water separate from a Hover Truck in the same hex they cannot re-arm. By Rules As Written, though a HW Team riding on a Hover Truck on water could not re-arm. Was that the intention?

[adm]

Would it be possible to get the newest version of the Quick Reference sheet here? The one that downloads for me only has sub headings a and b, under Section 2. Movement Phase, in the Turn Sequence boxed text.

I think this is the best place to ask this, if I am mistaken, my apologies in advance.

[Misplaced Buckeye]

Originally Posted by adm

Would it be possible to get the newest version of the Quick Reference sheet here? The one that downloads for me only has sub headings a and b, under Section 2. Movement Phase, in the Turn Sequence boxed text.

I think this is the best place to ask this, if I am mistaken, my apologies in advance.

Hey I'm heading out to MO in November. Are you anywheres near Fenton?

[adm]

Unfortunately, no. I have a farm between Springfield and Joplin.

[Mack_JB]

Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye

Hey I'm heading out to MO in November. Are you anywheres near Fenton?

While ADM isn't, I am near Fenton, maybe about 12 miles, tops.

[CaptainSnake]

Not sure if this is the best place to post this but for lack of a better alternative I will post it here and in the minis section of the forums.

My questions pertain to OGRE Minis, using the 2nd edition rulebook.

1) Is there any situation, be it overrun combat or normal combat, where an AP weapon on a SUPH or OGRE (or other possible platforms/mounts) automatically fires before any other weapon or unit? A player in my club insists that APs ALWAYS fire first, allowing no return fire from any unit eliminated by the AP, regardless of the type of combat, and regardless of whether they are the attacker or defender. Please set this straight for us.

2)Do the overrun rules apply to OGREs and SUPHvys in the same way as ALL other vehicles and INF with a few exceptions for rams and INF breaking down into squads for overrun?

3) Is there ANY circumstance in an overrun where ANY attacking unit will/would fire first?

4) Do OGRE overruns have their own rules or do they use the same ones as everyone else? I know somewhat redundant but I am trying to answer all dissenting views.

5) Looking at the pic on page 33 seems to imply that an OGRE can never be involved in an overrun on it's turn unless it wants to be? As the INF on the side is not close enough to the conning tower to be within an inch for an overrun if the defender called for a template check. Is this correct for that size model and what about other sizes and shapes. Is there a clear ruling on each size or is it model by model?

6) Does the attacker initiate the overrun as it says on page 32, or can the defender just move out of the way if it doesn't want to be overrun?

7) Are OGREs limited to attacking INF with AP only or can they use any weapon against INF?

8) Can INF only get into an overrun with an OGRE on the INF turn? Or can INF be overrun by an OGRE on the OGREs turn?

9) Is the OGRE ALWAYS the defender in an overrun?

10) Can you give me any other clarifications or errata for oveerrus involving INF and OGREs or just OGREs or anyhting at all?

Thanks to whoever at the Company has time for this.

[Desert Scribe]

Originally Posted by CaptainSnake

Not sure if this is the best place to post this but for lack of a better alternative I will post it here and in the minis section of the forums.

My questions pertain to OGRE Minis, using the 2nd edition rulebook.

Hey there! I'm not an employee of SJG, but I will try to answer your questions. I'm more familiar with the hex-and-counter rules, but I have also played Ogre Miniatures.

1) Is there any situation, be it overrun combat or normal combat, where an AP weapon on a SUPH or OGRE (or other possible platforms/mounts) automatically fires before any other weapon or unit? A player in my club insists that APs ALWAYS fire first, allowing no return fire from any unit eliminated by the AP, regardless of the type of combat, and regardless of whether they are the attacker or defender. Please set this straight for us.

No, and I've never heard of this. See the Sequencing and Targeting sections on page 28, and Multiple Attacks on page 30. Can that player actually cite anywhere in the rulebook that mentions AP firing first?

2)Do the overrun rules apply to OGREs and SUPHvys in the same way as ALL other vehicles and INF with a few exceptions for rams and INF breaking down into squads for overrun?

Yes, as far as I can tell.

3) Is there ANY circumstance in an overrun where ANY attacking unit will/would fire first?

No. See Resolving an Overrun Attack, page 33.

4) Do OGRE overruns have their own rules or do they use the same ones as everyone else? I know somewhat redundant but I am trying to answer all dissenting views.

Other than what you noted above, Ogres use the same rules. See Ogres in Overrun Combat, page 33.

5) Looking at the pic on page 33 seems to imply that an OGRE can never be involved in an overrun on it's turn unless it wants to be? As the INF on the side is not close enough to the conning tower to be within an inch for an overrun if the defender called for a template check. Is this correct for that size model and what about other sizes and shapes. Is there a clear ruling on each size or is it model by model?

It's the distance between units (measured from unit center to unit center), not unit size. See Range, page 28.

6) Does the attacker initiate the overrun as it says on page 32, or can the defender just move out of the way if it doesn't want to be overrun?

No. "An overrun attack occurs during the movement phase. The moving (attacking) player initiates an overrun combat ...." Page 32.

7) Are OGREs limited to attacking INF with AP only or can they use any weapon against INF?

Any weapon. See Combining Attacks, page 29.

8) Can INF only get into an overrun with an OGRE on the INF turn? Or can INF be overrun by an OGRE on the OGREs turn?

Yes to both.

9) Is the OGRE ALWAYS the defender in an overrun?

Not if it initiates the overrun during its movement phase.

10) Can you give me any other clarifications or errata for oveerrus involving INF and OGREs or just OGREs or anyhting at all?

Not sure what you're looking for; my interpretation of the rules is that any unit that moves close enough to another unit commits an overrun.

It seems like the player you mention has a unique interpretation of the rules. When in doubt, I always check the rule text first.

Thanks to whoever at the Company has time for this.

Again, I'm not with the company, but I hope this helps. If I have gotten some rules wrong, hopefully others will be along to set me straight.