Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

[adm]

Come now, dentists have their uses.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by adm

Come now, dentists have their uses.

As do lawyers, but Kessler will not admit to having ever enjoyed a visit with either.

He is convinced that Yankees were put on this Earth only to prevent the sons of Dixie from having to fight Canadians over that damned fool Peculiar Institution, as that would have been a crying shame and senseless fratricide.

Yankees having some century and half ago accomplished their purpose of being equal parts sporting sparring partners and the Lord's Castigating Wand on the one black mark of Southern culture, Kessler wishes they'd either wise up and starts speaking proper and cooking right, or at least stop making all this reality television about orange hooligans and squabbling housewives.

[Icelander]

In my Caribbean by Night campaign, the PCs are a part of a network of twenty full-time, ca twenty part-time and maybe some 20-30 retired Monster Hunters who are funded by the eccentric billionaire J.R. Kessler.

Officially, they and their fellow hunters work for various companies that Kessler owns*, such as International Yachting and Racing Incorporated (IYR Inc.), Sentinel Risk Management Inc. or Integrated Security and Human Intelligence Managment Limited (ISHIM Ltd.). Those hunters who so choose and who have a background that makes this plausible can also serve as Reserve Deputy Sheriffs in Jefferson County,** TX, a position which entails only a couple of days of duties per month, but comes with a badge and at least the beginnings of an explanation if they have to talk themselves out of a situation with Texas law enforcement.

Those hunters who are Reserve Deputies at the JCSO receive either a Glock 22 or Glock 23 in .40 S&W, their choice, and if they were previously detectives or administrators in another law enforcement agency and their reserve duties are similar, they also have the option of receiving a Glock 27 in .40 S&W.

All these Glocks will be Generation 4 until the Reserve Division of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office runs out of the weapons remaining in their armory since they were last updated, in December 2015. Anyone who became a reserve deputy before that will have a Gen3 model. Of course, the generation of the model makes no difference in GURPS terms.

These weapons are the service weapons official Texas Peace Officers, for all that they are unpaid and usually work fewer hours in a year than regular deputies do in a month. As such, their Patron has asked that whenever they are acting as Monster Hunters, and not legally within their duties as law enforcement officers, the hunters under no circumstances fire any rounds through these weapons. They are only meant to be used in legal shootings, which will be scrutinized by police and crime scene investigators, which is not something that the hunters expect to be doing.

For proper Monster Hunting, the preferred caliber is .45 or higher. This is not because of any belief in 'man-stopping' abilities of bigger rounds. Indeed, modern 9x19mm and .40 S&W expanding rounds will usually perform better on most metrics than typical .45 ACP loads. No, it is simply because this enables the hunters to use 200 grain .452 caliber bullets with a massive hollow cavity that can carry 0.25 mL of alchemical, herbal or mystical payload tailored to exploit the weaknesses of any monstrous predators they'll be hunting.

Actually, the hunters don't aim to hunt anything with sidearm and such bullets will ideally be fired from carbines chambered for .450 Bushmaster. In fact, popular loads from it among the current team are bullets of the same diameter, but longer and with an even larger cavity, for 280 grains and 0.5 mL payload. Such bullets also work well for weapons chambered in the 45 Raptor, which makes a fine monster hunting round, despite the disadvantage of requiring an AR-10/L308 rifle build instead of the ubiquitous AR-15 pattern.

But the 200 grain projectiles, at least, can also be loaded into .45 ACP cartridges along with enough powder to drive them at barely subsonic speeds from a 5.5" barrel. That's a nice loading for pistol-caliber carbines like the Quarter Circle QC10 GLF or the Kriss Vector SMG. It also makes for an acceptable loading for a back-up sidearm.

Those hunters who are members of the Jefferson County SWAT team get shiny race gun Glock 41 pistols in .45 ACP, which are too large to carry concealed, but are excellent weapons for open carry while in tactical gear. Those who choose to carry theirs while performing less official duties have had theirs custom-gunsmithed, starting with a new barrel.

It's clear that individual hunters will express their personality through weapon chooses and that's fine. I'm looking for a baseline of what's 'normal', however, to reflect a character that didn't put any extra thought into the tools he uses.

For example, what kind of sidearms should there be in the locked security cabinets aboard the Penemue, where firearms registered to IYR Inc. (for crew self-defence in dangerous waters) are stored?

What should be the standard sidearms that PSCs like Sentinel Risk Management Inc. and ISHIM Ltd. issue to their security personnel? Those companies, while wholly owned by Kessler and used as cover for monster hunting activities, actually employ several hundred people who are not monster hunters and do actually carry out typical PSC services in the Caribbean.

I'm leaning toward Glocks being the answer, but does anyone have other ideas?

For example, would the operational requirements of the comparatively small group of monster hunters covered under their umbrella be enough for the whole security force to be issued .45 ACP pistols or should they use more typical 9x19mm Parabellum?

Would it be implausible to have more than one caliber in service, so that security that had difficulty qualifying with .45 ACP weapons could carry 9x19mm pistols, but the elite security, the ones that sometimes back up the hunters, would have .45 ACP weapons that could use special ammunition?

Considering it, that actually seems fairly sensible.

But aside from Glock, what would be other leading contenders?

*Usually through many layers of offshore shell companies.
**Understanding Sheriffs also exist in neighboring Chambers and Galveston Counties and two PCs volunteer with all three Sheriff's Offices, mostly as instructors and trainers. Only the JCSO is obliging enough to allow their SWAT to be used as a cover for gray market monster hunting weaponry, however.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But aside from Glock, what would be other leading contenders?

The guns I've had PCs in a game wanting when their organisation issued Glocks have been SIG-Sauers. H&K USPs are also worth a look. The thing all these have in common is that they're Very Reliable, and for game purposes, don't malfunction.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The guns I've had PCs in a game wanting when their organisation issued Glocks have been SIG-Sauers. H&K USPs are also worth a look. The thing all these have in common is that they're Very Reliable, and for game purposes, don't malfunction.

Indeed. And buying such guns is always an option, I suppose.

But you don't issue a whole security force H&K USPs. That's just wasteful, isn't it? Not that Kessler is poor, so I guess he could, but even if he bought from them in the past, in the 2010s H&K has made some efforts to reform their policies on selling to foreign parties that might have dubious connections. I suppose getting their pistols shouldn't be a problem, but importing their carbines and SMGs into some jurisdictions would have become a hassle. I'd previously decided that H&K weapons were not standard issue for them.

Since High-Tech was published, innumerable new models have been launched by the leading gun manufacturers. Most of them are meant to compete with Glock, SIG-Sauer, H&K and other high-quality brands and other than failed designs or weapons which remain unpopular because of reliability issues, they'll all have Very Reliable. By late TL8, it's simply the standard of new firearms that aren't competing exclusively on the cheapest price.

For standard security guard sidearms, chambered in 9x19mm, the competition will be mainly between Glock 17/19, Beretta 92, FNX, H&K P2000, Springfield XD, Smith & Wesson M&P, SIG P226, SIG P229 or SIG P320. I've probably forgot some, which is why I'm thinking 'aloud' and asking the forumites. Nice options, though not as common on the law enforcement market in the US, are the Browning HP and CZ75. S&W also makes or made a lot of semi-automatics before the M&P, but while decent enough as examples of TL7 and early TL8 semi-automatics, they are by now simply objectively worse than other options for the same price.

When it comes to .45 ACP weapons, far fewer police departments or security firms issue them and those who do often are (or imagine that they are) some kind of SWAT. Various versions of 1911, usually highly customized, remain fairly popular with some US SWAT teams, despite the demands this makes on unit armorers. High-quality .45 ACP sidearms include Glock 21, Glock 30, Glock 41, H&K HK45 or HK45CT, SIG P220, Springfield XD45 or XDM45, Beretta PX4 Storm, FNX45, S&W M&P45, Colt Rail Gun, Sig Sauer 1911 Ultra, S&W Performance Center 1911, Kimber Custom TLE/RL II, Dan Wesson Valor Commander (or any Dan Wesson), STI Lawman or Wilson Combat CQB Tactical LE. The 1911 models, especially those heavily customized, are not very cost effective, but they are very nice.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Would it be implausible to have more than one caliber in service, so that security that had difficulty qualifying with .45 ACP weapons could carry 9x19mm pistols, but the elite security, the ones that sometimes back up the hunters, would have .45 ACP weapons that could use special ammunition?

Depends on the logistics chains and how much they're expecting to fight a pitched battle. Do not underestimate the value of "oh, this is a pistol magazine I've picked up in our emergency locker (or armoury), therefore it will fit in my pistol" versus having to pick the right sort.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by RogerBW

Depends on the logistics chains and how much they're expecting to fight a pitched battle. Do not underestimate the value of "oh, this is a pistol magazine I've picked up in our emergency locker (or armoury), therefore it will fit in my pistol" versus having to pick the right sort.

Yeah, that's what has me wondering if perhaps everyone should simply use Glocks in .45 ACP, with the same magazines fitting in Glock 21/30/41, as well as the PCCs (Pistol-Caliber Carbines) and SMGs being selected to use the same magazines (Kriss Vector SMGs and Quarter Circle PCCs are designed to use Glock magazines).

As a counter to that, however, ordinary cops, soldiers and security personnel will find it much more difficult to qualify with .45 ACP weapons over 9x19mm. For all the security guards who spend their time doing perfectly legal things and who might not even know about the monster hunting that goes on, it will sound pretty strange that they can't use 9x19mm pistols and carbines like more or less every police force on the islands where they work.

Edit: It's easy enough to have Glock 17/19/26 be the standard issue for all the ordinary security personnel, not involved in any kind of monster hunting, but to issue Generation 4 Glock 21s and Glock 30Ss to every security guard who is selected to guard the Penemue or provide support to monster hunters. Which means that the Penemue lockers will not contain any 9x19mm.

The Monster Hunters will receive custom Glock 41 race guns, with 5.3" match barrels threaded for suppressors, if they don't opt to select their own sidearms. I imagine that many of them will select their own sidearms, some carrying custom 1911, especially race guns made for IPSC by Kimber, STI, SVI, Para-USA, etc., a few maybe liking the HK USP45, SEALS recently out of the teams preferring HK45s, someone who likes high-capacity with a FNX-45, maybe a couple of SIG P220s, a classy guy or two with a custom CZ97B, etc.

How does that sound?

If the PCs weren't all some flavour of magician and afraid of malfunctions, I bet that we'd see a guy whose 'sidearm' is a Micro-UZI or MAC-10 in .45 ACP, or a MAC-10 in .460 Rowland.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But aside from Glock, what would be other leading contenders?

The Springfield XD and Smith & Wesson M&P are pistols often mentioned along with Glocks, having generally similar features and construction. I have both a Glock 22 and a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. The main difference I notice between the two is that at 20 meters, the XD shoots groups that can be covered with a silver dollar. The Glock shoots groups that can be covered with a broad brimmed hat. I realize that this is probably idiosyncratic - either I just don't shoot well with Glocks or that particular individual gun has something wrong with it. But I am rather fond of my XD. I also like the grip safety on the XD, which kinda makes up for the fact that neither model has a traditional safety.

Glocks do fit a few more rounds in their magazines than XDs, unless you get an extended magazine (which are available).

Luke

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

The Springfield XD and Smith & Wesson M&P are pistols often mentioned along with Glocks, having generally similar features and construction. I have both a Glock 22 and a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. The main difference I notice between the two is that at 20 meters, the XD shoots groups that can be covered with a silver dollar. The Glock shoots groups that can be covered with a broad brimmed hat. I realize that this is probably idiosyncratic - either I just don't shoot well with Glocks or that particular individual gun has something wrong with it. But I am rather fond of my XD. I also like the grip safety on the XD, which kinda makes up for the fact that neither model has a traditional safety.

Glocks do fit a few more rounds in their magazines than XDs, unless you get an extended magazine (which are available).

Luke

While this is no doubt idiosyncratic, it's not confined to you alone. When I last was in the US, I did some research by going to a New Hampshire gun range and shooting some guns that are popular with PCs in my games, and I found that accuracy at ranges up to 25 yards* was substantially easier with SIG Sauer pistols than Glocks, in the same caliber.

For me, it was the fit and comfort of the grip, as well as pointability and balance. I doubt mechanical accuracy had anything to do with it. I was shooting and reloading one-handed**, under the instruction of a tactical pistol instructor, so I generally started with my gun out of battery and engaged several targets while moving, and I wasn't doing any groups larger than double or triple taps.

Even so, there was a noticable difference in functional accuracy, as I noticed that while I would have no doubts about my ability to make head shots up to 25 yards with the SIG Sauer, I actually missed the head once, altogether, with the Glock and several times hit outside of the target area in the head, a triangle formed by the eyes and nose. This didn't happen with the SIG, it always hit where I meant to point it.

Colt 1911 in .45 was accurate enough, but like the .40 S&W weapons I tried, far too slow on follow-up shots. If I had been able to use a proper modern technique two-handed grip, it might have been different, but with one hand disabled, I got by far the best results with a sidearm chambered in 9x19mm.

Granted, I'm assuming that the Monster Hunters will be substantially better trained than I am, as I'd only shot .22s, air guns and shotguns before this. Plenty of people claim to be able to shoot .40 S&W and .45 ACP fast and accurately with enough training and while the Monster Hunters can't actually spend all their time training like CAG/Delta, many of them will arrive already with such training and I'm hoping maintaining that level of proficiency will be possible.

I'm also assuming that while 9x19mm might actually be superior when engaging normal humans, the ability of .45 ACP projectiles to deliver at least .25 mL of payload, my somewhat WAG guess for the minimum to count as a 'dose' of esoteric substances, will be more important in Monster Hunting than a slight advantage in firepower, shootability and ammunition capacity.

Edit: I was also using Gen3 and RTF2/Gen 3.5 Glocks of standard/compact size, Glock 17/19 and 22/23. I think I fired a couple of shots from a Glock 21 and I held a bunch of models while picking what to shoot. I also have replicas of subcompact Glocks, so I knew I had no interest in shooting them, as I don't like the ergonomics of the pinky-free grip.

I understand that SF models as well as Gen4 and Gen5 have different grips and adjustable backstaps. It's quite possible that with sleeker grips and the ability to adjust them to my fat baby, tiny sausage finger-having hands, I would have found the Glocks more comfortable to shoot and discovered the same confidence in achieving a flash sight picture and instinctual shooting with them as, for example, I had with a stock SIG P229 right out of the box.

*The range didn't allow longer shots.
**Broken thumb on my left.

[Icelander]

And now for something completely different.

There is basically no legal way that PSCs, Texas- or Caribbean-based, can buy fragmentation grenades, anti-personnel mines or other fun military explosives. So, one option is to buy Russian or Chinese hardware on the grey or black market.

Another option is to take explosives that mining and industrial firms can legally buy and have skilled machinists, combat engineers and armourers make the casing, fragmentation material, fuses and other necessary items to make grenades and anti-personnel mines.

How effective would this be? What is the closest thing to useful military-grade explosives that mining and industrial firms can legally acquire?

Would the REF be much less?

Could they get good fuzes anywhere?