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Old 07-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #11
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
Weak Kick: -1 per die.
Not all quadrupeds have this. Somewhere in RAW, I think it is mentioned that certain quadrupeds, such as horses, are adapted to kick and don't have this.
Buying Claws or Hooves automatically removes this.
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Old 07-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Buying Claws or Hooves automatically removes this.
Claws - yes, Hooves - no.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Well, the examples in Basic don't support this PoV. For example, the Ground Vehicle has No Manipulators, No Legs (Tracked/Wheeled), and Horizontal. Apparently Horizontal is primarily a posture disadvantage, with everything else being consequences of it.
In that case, the RAW effects of Horizontal are inconsistent with the application of it to templates. :confused

How is merely taking up double hexes a disadvantage at all, let alone -10 points, if you have no limbs at all? That makes no sense! Aargghh!
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Old 07-11-2009, 05:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
Elephants don't have Extra Arm, even in RAW. They have One Arm.
You're right, but it is built as an Extra Arm... the rules that apply to it are found under that advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi
In that case, the RAW effects of Horizontal are inconsistent with the application of it to templates. :confused

How is merely taking up double hexes a disadvantage at all, let alone -10 points, if you have no limbs at all? That makes no sense!
The confusion may stem from your treating Horizontal as though it is primarily about the limbs, when that seems to be a minor concern going by the templates in Basic *unsure*
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
You're right, but it is built as an Extra Arm... the rules that apply to it are found under that advantage.
Most of the modifications for beings with two arms are found under Extra Arms. They're still not Extra arms if you apply them to a one-armed or two-armed being. The method of modifying the arms doesn't even use the same formula. That they didn't bother to write two near-identical entries for each modification doesn't really argue that One Arm or two arms are the same as Extra Arms.



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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
The confusion may stem from your treating Horizontal as though it is primarily about the limbs, when that seems to be a minor concern going by the templates in Basic *unsure*
But the description in Characters talks all about limbs, with just a little bit about hexes. If you ignore the parts about what you can do with your limbs, this is all that's left: "You have a horizontal posture, like a cat. ... If you are human-sized, you take up two hexes on a battle map. ... Do not take this disadvantage if (list of non-compatible morphologies)."

I wish I was missing something that would explain this, but unless my book has a typo, that's the whole entry.

And aside from the limitations to how you can use your limbs, there just can't be anything disadvantageous about Horizontal. I cannot imagine any way in which taking up twice as many hexes is a disadvantage by itself. In fact, in RAW, a "centauroid" gets no disadvantages at all. Taking up more hexes isn't even mentioned under Meta Traits, let alone given a negative point value. "Centauroids" just get Extra Legs, maybe with Hooves, and that's it. If they want a larger Size Modifier for being long plus tall, it's a 0-point feature.


I can certainly agree with you that I'm confused, though. :?

Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 07-11-2009 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi
I can certainly agree with you that I'm confused, though. :?
I'm sorry I can't explain it to your satisfaction. Maybe you should take it up with Kromm privately?
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
I cannot imagine any way in which taking up twice as many hexes is a disadvantage by itself.
Well, you can be surrounded by more foes in melee combat, a potentially huge disadvantage in campaigns where that's likely to happen...

I've always just assumed horizontal was more about posture, meaning that you have to keep a sufficient number of limbs on the ground (i.e. more than two). If you've got extra then you've paid for them and can then reasonably overcome that element of the disad, right?

BTW, I think I've noticed that the animals and such don't always follow the rules under ads/disads. Don't have any specific examples on me but I was trying to find animals to modify into other similar ones and kept running into examples.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
How is merely taking up double hexes a disadvantage at all, let alone -10 points, if you have no limbs at all? That makes no sense! Aargghh!
Two extra rear hexes is a pretty big deal. It makes it a lot harder to defend against attacks.

On the other hand, there are several other ways of having extra rear hexes which don't give you points back and you can take horizontal along with advantages which let you defend normally against attacks from the rear.
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Old 07-13-2009, 12:04 PM   #19
Vaevictis Asmadi
 
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

That is starting to make sense... But if it is a big deal, why doesn't the hex problem affect centauroids or aquatic animals? And why aren't there Limitations for "Doesn't Affect Arms" and "No Fine Manipulators"?

Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 07-13-2009 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: Horizontal Question

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
In that case, the RAW effects of Horizontal are inconsistent with the application of it to templates. :confused

How is merely taking up double hexes a disadvantage at all, let alone -10 points, if you have no limbs at all? That makes no sense! Aargghh!
Because of Human as Default. (...Funny, I can't find a TvTrope for that...)

I don't know if it's different in 4e, "Inconvenient Size" is -10/-15 in 3e, and being a two hex creature in a place designed for humans would be difficult.

Centauroid beings can carry stuff without a Move penalty, and even use the item, unlike true Horizontal beings.

*thinks* Elephants: Centauroid, Extra Legs, One Hand/One Fine Manipulator?
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