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Old 11-18-2021, 07:34 PM   #1
phiwum
 
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Default Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

I was thinking about character creation. Sometimes people talk about the importance of DX over ST and it is tempting to think that hitting more is better than hitting hard, but of course that's only an initial gut reaction. The expected damage per turn is the probability of hitting times the average damage per hit, of course.

So I was thinking about this. Where's the sweet spot for DX and ST for a starting character? To simplify matters, I focused on a sword user and I assumed that he would use a bastard sword two-handed. I came up with the following table:

Code:
Sum ST+DX	24												
DX	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18
Armor/IQ adj													
0	0.97	1.70	2.72	3.56	4.75	5.31	5.19	5.03	4.54	3.34	2.45	2.49	2.50
1	0.97	1.70	2.46	3.56	4.25	4.38	4.44	4.19	3.18	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
2	0.97	1.54	2.46	3.19	3.50	3.75	3.70	2.93	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
3	0.88	1.54	2.20	2.63	3.00	3.13	2.59	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
4	0.88	1.38	1.81	2.25	2.50	2.19	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
5	0.79	1.13	1.56	1.88	1.75	1.56	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
6	0.65	0.97	1.30	1.31	1.25	1.56	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
7	0.56	0.81	0.91	0.94	1.25	1.56	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
8	0.46	0.57	0.65	0.94	1.25	1.56	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
9	0.32	0.41	0.65	0.94	1.25	1.56	1.85	2.09	2.27	2.38	2.45	2.49	2.50
The numbers on the left side represent the starting points reserved for IQ or the amount of DX "wasted" by wearing armor, so ST = 24 - DX - #, where # is the value in that column. The number across the top is DX, of course. The number in the table is figured by taking the probability to hit with that DX and multiplying it by the average damage for the best sword for that ST. The bolded is the best combination.

Thus, we can see that if we have a 32 pt warrior with IQ 8 and no armor, he should want a DX 11 and ST 13 to maximize damage each turn (in which there are no DX modifiers!). If he moves to cloth armor or large shield or wants IQ 9, he's better off to move to DX 13 (adjDX 12) and ST 11.

Once you reserve five points for IQ or to offset armor, you really do just want to maximize DX and ignore ST. Well, sort of. Obviously if your opponent is armored, the probability of a low ST character doing damage is pretty low, but to include such considerations goes beyond this simple chart. I'd want to know the probability that an attack hits and yields damage greater than the armor, but I haven't done that calculation. That's harder than using average damage per hit as I'm doing here.

I don't expect this to settle questions of how important DX is for a hero (and I didn't mention wizards, since they're too complicated for any statistical analysis I can think of). It's not supposed to do that. I was just interested in looking at what DX/ST combination maximizes damage (with a sword). I found it interesting that the "best" DX is 11, give or take, which is lower than I expected.

Once we leave the sterile room, of course, we might want a higher DX to overcome common negative modifiers. Or we might want a higher ST to overcome an opponent's armor. Or, dagnab it, we might just want a particular kind of character and screw optimization.

Last edited by phiwum; 12-04-2021 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 11-18-2021, 09:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

Cool! At the top of the DX (3d6) bell curve (10 and 11) you get the biggest bang for your buck, with diminishing returns as DX goes up. At some point extra armor contributes more to your survival than the increase in your chance to hit.

Somewhat along these lines, I've been trying to come up with a single number to represent how dangerous a fighter/foe/creature is, a Combat Value if you will.

The best so far is modeled on how many turns it would take to beat Joe the Barbarian (ST 12 DX 12 Broadsword 2) divided by how many turns it would take him to best you. It uses a table of values much like what you've posted above. (No fancy combat maneuvers here, just hacking away at each other.) It's a pretty rough guide, but since combat is so chaotic (meaning small variations at the start produce big changes in the result) precision isn't very useful. I'm not sure it's better than an experienced player's instincts, but at least it can be plugged into computer code.

And I agree that sometimes you want to play a particular character that isn't on the optimal path. A world full of optimal drones gets boring.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

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Originally Posted by tomc View Post
The best so far is modeled on how many turns it would take to beat Joe the Barbarian (ST 12 DX 12 Broadsword 2) divided by how many turns it would take him to best you.
See here for a table of monsters sorted by Barbarian Equivalency Units.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/firepower.html
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:01 AM   #4
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
See here for a table of monsters sorted by Barbarian Equivalency Units.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/firepower.html
That's really cool! I like how you cover the whole range from rats to dragons. It makes me want to try 10 Myrmidons (Firepower 370) vs a 14 hex Dragon (Firepower 372).
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:07 AM   #5
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

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Originally Posted by tomc View Post
That's really cool! I like how you cover the whole range from rats to dragons. It makes me want to try 10 Myrmidons (Firepower 370) vs a 14 hex Dragon (Firepower 372).
Note this assumes optimized human builds. If you don't take any crossbows the dragon shall roast then retire to roost to recuperate.

As noted in my webpage the best tactic for the 14-hex dragon is to keep flying and claw swipe one target per turn on the edge of their formation.
The proper response is to go all Renaissance on the lizard with Pike and Shot tactics, or just bring a lot of wizards.
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Last edited by hcobb; 11-19-2021 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 11-19-2021, 11:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

Bolo cannon.
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Old 11-19-2021, 11:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

It makes me want to try 10 Myrmidons (Firepower 370) vs a 14 hex Dragon (Firepower 372).

I'd like to see a youtube video of this scenario made by someone besides me so I get a different viewpoint of it.
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Old 11-19-2021, 12:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

Note that 372 is the firepower of a 14-hex dragon with my houserules and RAW is only 217.

So that's six Halfling flingers vs a 14-hex dragon as per RAW.
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Old 11-19-2021, 03:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

What does "optimal starting human characters" mean?

Of course, how something performs against even a finite "line" of characters seems pretty far from how it will perform against the same number of characters attacking as a mob. I can see why you might want some device for estimating power and perhaps even rewarding XP according to that estimate, but any such device will be pretty damned crude.

Indeed, the setting of a combat makes a hell of a difference as to how hard the combat is. A dragon attacking out in the open is different from one attacking where trees are available for cover which is also different from one attacking in a cavern. I think that each of these has to be evaluated after the battle to make a reasonable assessment of XP gain. How did the PCs face the challenge? That's more important than how the challenge stacks up when you take the square root of the whatsit multiplied the thingy.
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Character creation: maximizing damage per turn

I assume infinite open plain, but no sniping oddly enough.


Sandboxes matter a lot here.
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