It's a trap

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by tomc

Wanna end the world? Find a Summon Smarter Wizard spell that brings a Wizard with the summoner's spells and attributes, plus 1 IQ point...

Summons can't cast spells or disbelieve.

[Peter von Kleinsmid]

ITL expects a GM to apply some discretion, and assumes either that discretion will involve logic and common sense, or if not, that any illogical GM rulings are desired (and not just to generate ironic Murphy's Rules posts).

So, for example Summon Myrmidon

"Brings a warrior [which] can be any starting (32-point) fighter with any legal combination of regular weapons and armor."

The fact that it doesn't mention whether a summoned myrmidon may have any other talents, languages, spells, magic items, handy equipment, knowledge you'd like to have, or the key to the door you want to open, does not mean that those things (or anything else you can imagine) is something the spell does.


Similarly, there is no one universal mechanic explaining what all traps do. We could add more in that direction, but traps will behave according to what they are and their mechanisms. Many of the rules in ITL are suggested starting points from which a GM can make specific rulings that apply to a situation.

Only in a game where Henry is analyzing the RAW and then playing and GM'ing himself, will there be predictable odds about what will happen when someone engages traps using a certain strategy.


As for Henry's first assertion, that "Untalented Detect Traps is at the base number of dice so a few IQ 12+ alert characters in a party will spot just about everything by just walking by." I would say instead that the GM ought to consider the odds of multiple spotting rolls, and set the number of dice appropriately.

So, consider what "a few IQ 12+ alert characters" is (i.e. several extremely observant people), and how likely you feel something should be to spot, before setting the number of dice. Remember that talents may remove 1 or 2 dice, a focused on-target search removes a die, and that multiple searchers or attempts can get more rolls, so if something is hidden well enough to avoid a determined search, it ought to require many dice to detect.

So 3/IQ to spot is quite easy even for one person just walking by. 4/IQ is easy for one person who's observant just walking by. 5/IQ is getting harder for one observant person to spot, but not if they actually study where the thing is. 6/IQ is getting hard to spot even for a few alert people, but a focused search by a group and/or or people with Detect Traps may tend to spot a 6/IQ trap. Things that are really not very likely to be detected except with much time/talent/observers are probably 7+ dice to spot.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

As for Henry's first assertion, that "Untalented Detect Traps is at the base number of dice so a few IQ 12+ alert characters in a party will spot just about everything by just walking by." I would say instead that the GM ought to consider the odds of multiple spotting rolls, and set the number of dice appropriately.

Hear, hear! At first, I just made the traps harder to spot to dampen the effect of many viewers. Later, I adjusted, choosing traps that could be seen only by the first in line before it was triggered.

I've had a player cycle PCs through a room to look at a chest, hoping to spot a trap. I just plumb overruled that. Maybe the closest two people get a roll, but after that, you gotta give me an argument. Never mind how traps work. That just ain't how people work.

[Oneiros]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Hear, hear! At first, I just made the traps harder to spot to dampen the effect of many viewers. Later, I adjusted, choosing traps that could be seen only by the first in line before it was triggered.

I've had a player cycle PCs through a room to look at a chest, hoping to spot a trap. I just plumb overruled that. Maybe the closest two people get a roll, but after that, you gotta give me an argument. Never mind how traps work. That just ain't how people work.

I pretty much use the standard dice to detect as listed, except I distinguish between “passively” detecting (just walking down the hall) vs. actively searching by adding a die to the former. The Detect Traps talent still knocks two dice off of that, but it’s no longer automatic.

But really, I’m not worried so much with characters detecting traps as how they deal with them. They might only detect the trigger - trip wire, pressure plate, etc. - but not know what it does. Conversely, the trap may be obvious, but they don’t know what triggers it. More interesting than just “Surprise! You failed the roll I secretly made for you!”

Edit: I do agree though that there should be situations where not everyone in the party gets a chance to spot a trap before someone might set it off. Fairly common situation, really.

[hcobb]

GM: "You see something unusual about the door to your left."
Goblin Girl Genius (IQ 17 + Alertness): "What's different about it?"
GM: "It's not like the other doors you've passed." (It was put in more recently by a different group, but she doesn't have the talents to judge this.)
GGG: "Yo thief, what's the trap here?"
Thief (IQ 11 + Remove Traps, does a half minute (or is it full minute???) search on an door with no traps) "There's no trap."
GGG: "But my Alertness spotted something. Look again!"
The two continue to argue as the troll sneaks up behind them.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Oneiros

But really, I’m not worried so much with characters detecting traps as how they deal with them. They might only detect the trigger - trip wire, pressure plate, etc. - but not know what it does. Conversely, the trap may be obvious, but they don’t know what triggers it. More interesting than just “Surprise! You failed the roll I secretly made for you!”

Totally agree that detecting a trap is usually just detecting the trigger. Figuring out what it does is something else.

I think that I'll start sprinkling pressure plates and tripwires that aid the party instead of threatening them. Make these easy to see and let them fret over what to do (both of these are fairly easy to avoid), just to kick themselves later when they discover they went the long and dangerous route rather than take the short cut that the "trap" enabled.

I don't recall ever making the toothy part of the trap more obvious than the trigger. I should play with that.

[Oneiros]

Originally Posted by hcobb

GM: "You see something unusual about the door to your left."
Goblin Girl Genius (IQ 17 + Alertness): "What's different about it?"
GM: "It's not like the other doors you've passed." (It was put in more recently by a different group, but she doesn't have the talents to judge this.)
GGG: "Yo thief, what's the trap here?"
Thief (IQ 11 + Remove Traps, does a half minute (or is it full minute???) search on an door with no traps) "There's no trap."
GGG: "But my Alertness spotted something. Look again!"
The two continue to argue as the troll sneaks up behind them.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to illustrate here with your vignette, Henry. That it's very easy for the GM to throw a red herring at the players by only giving them a little bit of information? Unless the door replacement is of significance to the adventure, why even bother mentioning it? Seems more like a trap for the players, not the characters. Which is a GM tactic that isn't without its merits, but I'm just not sure about this example you describe.

If the different door is of significance, personally I'd have given an IQ 17 (+ Alertness) character a little more, including "you don't think it's a trap", precisely to avoid the scene you describe. I'm not sure what Talents you think they should have to determine the extra info about the door, but a high IQ character might be able to deduce a little bit of it anyway. Especially if it's relevant to their current exploration activities and suspicions.

[hcobb]

If the character was an Architect/Builder they could figure out that a reinforced door was put in at this location to keep the troll out.

Don't let untalented super IQ be a game breaking superpower.

[Oneiros]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If the character was an Architect/Builder they could figure out that a reinforced door was put in at this location to keep the troll out.

Don't let untalented super IQ be a game breaking superpower.

I guess it's a matter of context. Was the door reinforced in such a way that it doesn't look reinforced? (And if so, why? To fool the troll?). Unless it was done in a very unusual way, I don't see how even an average IQ character couldn't figure out it was reinforced. The thief probably noticed it sounded more solid or had heavier hinges/banding when searching for traps.

Now why it was done is another matter. The fact that it's reinforced is merely a clue to give the PCs to chew on. Clues are more interesting than withholding.

I don't know why the Architect specifically would know it was placed to keep the troll out, unless the party knows there's a troll in the area. In which case, anybody could figure that out.