Imperfections: Human 'dissonance'

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

@Acolyte - oh sorry, for some reason didn't see your post! No, this wouldn't be related to Fate/Destiny. Thanks for the commment on pallid/Vaputech.

@Attercap - I've yet to see or hear of a successful human PC in IN, and see no reason to try again. This is intended for NPCs (my apologies for not pointing that out). It gives angels and demons a reason to interact with humans, and keep them as pets, rather than treating them as mobile scenery.

I was wondering. No problem.

Regarding point the second--I don't think any angel or demon PC should treat humans as mobile scenery, ESPECIALLY angels. The War is being fought over human souls, because every damned soul lends credence to Lucifer's point of view and every blessed one undercuts the Rebellion's philosophical basis. Most angels and many demons should treat every encounter with humans as potentially pivotal in the War. (Superiors and Word-bound often see humans as props in the War, and Servitors of Judgment/the Game are focused more on celestials, but this should hold true for PC-level angels and PC-level demons who aren't just using Earthly duty to escape Hell.)

Just because a human is dumber and can't fight as well as a celestial doesn't mean he's not important. (There are exceptions, as always--Kronos specifically targets popular/powerful/influential people for his demons to take down, assuming Joe Everyman will follow.)

This isn't an argument for human PCs--IN isn't set up to deal with human PCs no matter how many optional rules you use, and I think it's a mistake to try to force the game to be something it's not--but for the relevance that NPC humans should have.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

-I don't think any angel or demon PC should treat humans as mobile scenery, ESPECIALLY angels. The War is being fought over human souls,

PCs shouldn't - players should. GMs should. Wars are fought over territory, riches, slaves: possessions.

Agreed that the inability of humans to be viable PCs is not a problem: IN is a game about angels and demons. What is a problem is that humans don't even make useful NPCs.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

PCs shouldn't - players should. GMs should. Wars are fought over territory, riches, slaves: possessions.

GMs and players should not treat humans as scenery even if they are as mechanically effective as insects. To do so would undercut the importance of humanity within the game, which has nothing to do with mechanical effectiveness.

Agreed that the inability of humans to be viable PCs is not a problem: IN is a game about angels and demons. What is a problem is that humans don't even make useful NPCs.

I don't know about that. Human Servants are overpriced, CP wise, I'll agree, but they do have uses. Even if there are ways around disturbance, not every celestial has access to them, and human servants can thus be the ones who press the detonator button or slit the throat of an enemy Soldier. Unless you're a Kyriotate, even lack of a need to sleep means that you can't be in two places at the same time, so a Servant might be able to cover your shift at the local Taco Bell or drive back to the Tether for reinforcements while you fight a demon. Speaking of Kyriotates, Servants make excellent, reliable hosts. They can help you smooth over social gaffs you're not overly prepared for (like if the cops are asking questions and you're a Seraph, or you butt into a dinner conversation about Vichy France to casually explain how it REALLY was, since you were ther--ummm, I mean, this soup's delicious!). Impudites get easy Essence from them. They can be trained to make a tasty mojito. Being humans, they might come up with ideas about how to manipulate a recalcitrant city councilman you might not have thought of. Etc.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

To do so would undercut the importance of humanity within the game, which has nothing to do with mechanical effectiveness.

replace 'undercut' with 'acknowledge' and I'd be happy with the sentence.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I don't know about that. Human Servants are overpriced, CP wise, I'll agree, but they do have uses. Even if there are ways around disturbance, not every celestial has access to them, and human servants can thus be the ones who press the detonator button or slit the throat of an enemy Soldier. Unless you're a Kyriotate, even lack of a need to sleep means that you can't be in two places at the same time, so a Servant might be able to cover your shift at the local Taco Bell or drive back to the Tether for reinforcements while you fight a demon. Speaking of Kyriotates, Servants make excellent, reliable hosts. They can help you smooth over social gaffs you're not overly prepared for (like if the cops are asking questions and you're a Seraph, or you butt into a dinner conversation about Vichy France to casually explain how it REALLY was, since you were ther--ummm, I mean, this soup's delicious!). Impudites get easy Essence from them. They can be trained to make a tasty mojito. Being humans, they might come up with ideas about how to manipulate a recalcitrant city councilman you might not have thought of. Etc.

So: if *nobody* has a combat role; or
if *everybody* is a Seraph, or
if *no one* is a Kyrio/Shedite, or..

good hosts? Hardly, Kyrios get dissonance for any harm to their hosts, and revealing that a Host is a Servant will tip Hell to their existence - an (at best) fatal mistake. The best hosts for Kyrios are drug addicts, as in return for a temporary Will reduction you can dry them out, doing them a huge favour: this will wipe any minor problems you've caused.
easy essence? Soldiers won't have essence cause they can spend it. Impudites are better off stripping mundanes, since they have lower Wills, find it harder to spend the essence, and (if children/only have 4 Forces) can't resist.
Manipulation? That's what Mercurians & Elohim are for for the good guys, with Balseraphs, Habbbalah, Lilim and Impudites (or even Pachadim) for Hell.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

replace 'undercut' with 'acknowledge' and I'd be happy with the sentence.

You think that players and GM at the table treating humans as no more detailed or relevant than "territory" acknowledges their in-game importance? I don't follow.

So: if *nobody* has a combat role; or
if *everybody* is a Seraph, or
if *no one* is a Kyrio/Shedite, or..

good hosts? Hardly, Kyrios get dissonance for any harm to their hosts, and revealing that a Host is a Servant will tip Hell to their existence - an (at best) fatal mistake. The best hosts for Kyrios are drug addicts, as in return for a temporary Will reduction you can dry them out, doing them a huge favour: this will wipe any minor problems you've caused.
easy essence? Soldiers won't have essence cause they can spend it. Impudites are better off stripping mundanes, since they have lower Wills, find it harder to spend the essence, and (if children/only have 4 Forces) can't resist.

Manipulation? That's what Mercurians & Elohim are for for the good guys, with Balseraphs, Habbbalah, Lilim and Impudites (or even Pachadim) for Hell.[/QUOTE]

Again, that suggests all those things are on hand--Kyrios don't always have a stable of drug addicts (and wiping one clean so that he can half-restart his life before letting him lapse back into bad habits once you've disposed of him may well do more damage than leaving him as an addict). A Kyrio with a human Servant willing to be "ridden" can always take his current host's phone, call the guy up, say "meet me at the bus station at X St and Y Ave", and ditch the unknowing host for the knowing one before too much time accrues (because the longer you inhabit a stranger, the more likely it is that you'll do damage). That has value. And sure, you're not going to put your Servant in the line of demonic fire, but that's true of any kind of Servant (it's not like more-useful Undead Servants can really stand up to angels).

And not every party has a seasoned manipulator on staff. Human Servitors can fill in gaps in certain group arrangements, not as well as an angel or demon, but better than nothing. They can do the same thing with other skills celestials rarely have the points for--Driving comes to mind as a skill it's nice to have access to but celestials often skip out on for more Songs or Fight or whatever.

Back to your original topic--if you see humans as so much a background element, as beings utterly under the thumb of hordes of swarming celestials whose abilities give them every possible advantage, why would you want to add in a new category of ills to wish on them?

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

You think that players and GM at the table treating humans as no more detailed or relevant than "territory" acknowledges their in-game importance? I don't follow.

Tried to play a clever word game, and muffed it - no matter.
The ingame importance of humans is zero. Sure, there's fluff about how they matter, but nothing in the game setting or mechanics backs that up. If you take the claim that the war is about humans seriously, then the only conclusion is that hell is right: while the best option for humans is that the Impudites rebel from hell and kick both sides off the planet.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Back to your original topic--if you see humans as so much a background element, as beings utterly under the thumb of hordes of swarming celestials whose abilities give them every possible advantage, why would you want to add in a new category of ills to wish on them?

*Very* good question!
Demons can corrupt/control/twist humans with ease: there's no equivalent for angels. Frex, a demon of Nightmares can ethereally 'kill' a dreamer, giving them a level of Ethereal Disadvantage: this costs nothing other than the ability to enter the dreamscape, and doesn't create disturbance. Angels of Dreams cannot heal this damage, nor give humans any substantial benefits.
Shedim permanently corrupt their hosts, and can dump disads on them with the Songs of Corruption. Kyrios cannot fix this damage. And so forth.

Imperfections are weaknesses that angels *can* deal with, giving them a reason to care about the presence of the humans. Meanwhile, demons can exploit the Imperfections, giving *them* an additional reason to interact with humans.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

If you take the claim that the war is about humans seriously, then the only conclusion is that hell is right: while the best option for humans is that the Impudites rebel from hell and kick both sides off the planet.

I don't even remotely follow that reasoning. Impudites suck Essence away from humans, making them unlucky, depressed, and low-energy. How could a world run by Impudites be in humans' best interest?

*Very* good question!
Demons can corrupt/control/twist humans with ease: there's no equivalent for angels.
<snip>
Imperfections are weaknesses that angels *can* deal with, giving them a reason to care about the presence of the humans. Meanwhile, demons can exploit the Imperfections, giving *them* an additional reason to interact with humans.

On the contrary, Disadvantages differ from Discord (other than the type of being each can affect) primarily in the fact that Disadvantages can be worked off by an individual and Discord can only be removed by a Superior (or, I suppose, an Intervention). Angels can't miracle away a Disadvantage created by demons, but they can steer a human in the direction of working it off himself (providing therapy or recommending a good therapist for that Ethereal Disadvantage, buying a gym membership for the overweight guy, etc--> and it's not as though every Shedite has a high-level Song of Corruption).

But the real problem with your analysis is that angels and demons don't need additional reasons to interact with humans, because they have a hard-wired directive on that matter based on the Word they Serve in addition to whatever current assignment they might be on. Angels of Trade should be constantly interacting with humans to promote free trade, economic growth, increased prosperity for all social classes, and a spirit of healthy exchange (a Malakite might kill CEOs who abuse the system, an Elohite might manipulate the same CEO into changing his ways, a Mercurian might become a politician on the local scale and change the way laws treat corporations). Angels of War should be doing heroic things in front of humans and publicizing martial human endeavors, be it an Ofanite conducting vigilante justice on robbers mid robbery or a Kyriotate temporarily borrowing a pedestrian to save an innocent from gang violence and refusing to name the host's name, creating legends about modern Good Samaritans. Demons of Dark Humor should be using cruel laughter and mockery to debase the self-worth of the humans around them, be it a Balseraph who drives a human into believing crazy conspiracy stories to such an extent that his friends enjoy baiting him and lose all respect for him or a Shedite who constantly puts his host into ridiculously compromising situations (like sexting people who follow him on Twitter...). Demons of Death, rather than simply killing everything in sight in inventive ways, should be fostering a culture where life is viewed as a meaningless struggle against the all-powerful presence of death, whether a Lilim who Geases a human into performing acts that lead to his suicide in front of his own children or a Calabite who kills only teenagers that act or claim to be invincible in such a way that the other kids are haunted by the ugly sight of the corpse for the rest of their lives.

It is true that celestial resonances and abilities easily overcome human defenses (but watch out for dumb luck and Interventions!), but there's a big difference between breaking one human and painting the Symphony with your Superior's Word in big, broad strokes, which is what every celestial is supposed to be doing.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I don't even remotely follow that reasoning. Impudites suck Essence away from humans, making them unlucky, depressed, and low-energy. How could a world run by Impudites be in humans' best interest?

Impudites are the only celestials who have a vested interest in humans.
Firstly, they get dissonance for *letting* a human die. Anyone else can walk past a drowning child or bleeding victim: Impudites have to save them.

Secondly, Impudites can benefit from humans: and use that benefit to assist humans. Dying of old age? If you've got an essence, a Taker with CorpEntropy can give you CD years of life. Humans don't need essence, and can't use it for much. Impudites can turn that essence into wonderful things.

Thirdly, humans gain a 2nd essence if they have a skill/6, giving Takers a vested interest in helping humans develop themselves. Medicine is the best skill from the Impudites perspective of course, as it also can be used to avoid dissonance and at skill/5 a CD of 6 turns it into skill/6. Language and Area Knowledge are easy (since they start at skill/3) so Impudites will end up encouraging humans to speak well and know their home turf: useful things.

Finally, Impudites can trade the stolen essence for other useful things, building up trade networks that they then have to use to benefit their humans.

A world ruled by Impudites means a world where people live long lives using their finest skills, with supernatural blessing being standard.

--------------------------

As for everything else: that's reliever/demonling work. Sure, a full celestial can waste their time doing that stuff, but they can't use their full abilities without blowing their cover!
Worse, from Heaven's perspective, most of it strengthens The Media, as it is all about humans being passive recievers of the Celestial message.

Now, PCs have a choice - waste their time doing stuff that any 7 Force underling can do, or permanently remove their opposing numbers. Every enemy they dispose of costs the other side millennia of work; every enemy subverted additionally gains millennia of work. Whether it means hitting a demon with EthAttraction and then CorpProjection into Notre Dame for a soul kill, or whacking an angel with enough Dissonance and Discord for a Fall, the real work doesn't involve humans at all.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

Impudites are the only celestials who have a vested interest in humans.

This is an interesting take for a "backwards" game that doesn't even turn the original mechanics on their head. Impudites are cast as parasitic, but this does demonstrate that it's pretty easy to cast them as symbiotic.

As for my silence on the original post: I didn't comment sooner because I like to keep things as mechanics-light as possible, with more role-playing than roll-playing, and simplified/clarified character sheets whenever possible. I prefer tweaks that simplify (or ditch) existing rules over tweaks that add new rules. But I know I'm in the minority of gamers on these points (given the higher popularity of systems like d20, GURPS, etc.), so I just pipe down when suggestions like this are made. (And chime in when you say something that interests me about the game world ... like the utility of Impudites.)

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

Impudites are the only celestials who have a vested interest in humans.

This is untrue even looking at humans as nothing more than Essence batteries. Servitors of Dreams, Judgement, Creation, Animals and Flowers on the Heavenly side and Lust, Fire, Fate, and Death on the Infernal all require interacting humans for some or all of their Rites, and many other rites are far more easily performed involving humans, even if Celestials can theoretically do the trick (E.g, there are a lot more human armouries, labs, gardens and what have you to rest in than there are Celestial ones, any Rite that involves large numbers of people). There are also several Attunements which only work on humans or are only relevant to human situations.