Incident Dissonance vs. Recurring Dissonance

[JCD]

Situation:

The Lilim Marisol promised Curtis the Impudite that she would visit him once a year to fill him in on her tether information (She was over a barrel safety wise and owed him a bunch of geases).

For one reason or another, she had to defer this for a couple of years (She was busy)

Now, I contend that as a variant rule, she should NOT be able to fix that Dissonance at a tether since it would nag. Every day past her 'due date' she could still satisfy the geas. She is simply choosing not too.

This is in opposition to Curtis killing someone. Once the act is done, there is no going back. Now, if he knew a person was trapped in the bottom of a gorge and would die of exposure in a few days, he would get a point for not helping and that would continue until that person was dead.

Needless to say, a Superior could remove that Dissonance at will, but would be peeved to do so without a good reason.

What do you think?

[Matthias Wasser]

Almost all of the "do this every so often" Dissonance conditions have an "accumulate Dissonance until you've caught up, and then it disappears" clause, so I wouldn't be averse to taking that as the general rule.

[JCD]

That is another way to do it. But accumulating a point a day for a yearly requirement seems a bit rough

[Matthias Wasser]

Well, it would be at the rate of the interval itself, so 1D/yr. Which is reasonable if it can't be worked off any other way.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Well, it would be at the rate of the interval itself, so 1D/yr. Which is reasonable if it can't be worked off any other way.

I have a problem with this.

Consider: Curtis has a geas/1 on him. He is tasked to call his boss today (something he really doesn't want to do, hence the necessity of the geas). He gets a point of Dissonance for every day he puts this off.

Marisol the Lilim has a geas/6 called on her to go to Columbus every year on Walpurgisnacht to report what she's seen that's notable to the geas holder. If she gyps him for 3 years, she only gets 3 points of Dissonance.

Yet which is the stronger geas vs the weaker?

[Orlin]

Consider: Curtis has a geas/1 on him. He is tasked to call his boss today (something he really doesn't want to do, hence the necessity of the geas). He gets a point of Dissonance for every day he puts this off.

Marisol the Lilim has a geas/6 called on her to go to Columbus every year on Walpurgisnacht to report what she's seen that's notable to the geas holder. If she gyps him for 3 years, she only gets 3 points of Dissonance.

A Geas doesn't cause the Geased-person to suffer dissonance unless the Geas itself calls for a dissonant action. In fact, it's precisely the opposite -- if Marisol managed to avoid going to Columbus one year (extremely unlikely), the Lilim that was holding Marisol's Geas would incur 1 point of dissonance. If Marisol managed to refuse twice (after her Geas-holder calls her, 1-6 days later and invokes the Geas again), the Geas would be broken, the Geased-party would be absolved of the Geas, and the Geas-holder would be stuck with the dissonance and out howling for blood.

Superiors: Lilith goes into more detail about this, but essentially a Geas/1 is low-level because it only imposes a -1 penalty on the Will roll to avoid completing the task set by the Geas. A Geas/6, likewise, imposes a -6 to the TN of an opposed Will roll.

So, if Curtis was a Seraph with an 8 Will, he'd only have to roll a TN 7 not to call up his boss and tell him he wasn't going to be able to make it in for work -- and he could push that with Essence. If Curtis wasn't very bright, he could try the old, "I'm sick," routine -- but that would be dissonant.

If Curtis succeeds on his Will roll, the Lilim who gave him the Geas gets slapped with a point of dissonance. Effectively, she can choose to work the dissonance off in a Tether or she can try to invoke the Geas again (after a number of days equal to the CD of Curtis' roll) and try one more time to make him compliant.

Now, take into consideration Marisol, who has a Geas/6 imposed on her. She may not want to go to Columbus, she may be *really* busy, but as soon as the Lilim invokes the Geas, she'll drop everything she's doing to get to Columbus. She could be on a mission appointed personally by her Prince; if she fails the Will roll, she'd better get her fanny on a redeye or succeed a Will roll against a -6 penalty!

Remember that a Geas/6 is no joke. Marisol would have had to have had accrued a host of favors from her Geas-holder -- or failing that, her Geas-holder would have had to have done her a huge favor. We're talking thousands of dollars in a wire-transfer that has the potential to be traced back to the source, or saving her from an investigation consucted by the Game. Something BIG.

That Geas/6 is going to be a lot herder to roll against, and Marisol has to succeed twice. Also, consider that if Curtis shirks his duty, the Lilim might be annoyed. If Marisol shirks a Geas/6, she'll have an entire sorority of really ****** off Lilim on her hands! This is the kind of stuff that the other Lilim *heavily* enforce! If you're a Tempter, shirking a Geas/6 is like composing really nasty hate-mail and sending it to Lilith with a copy of your hair, a fingernail clipping and your name signed in blood. You might be able to go through with it (if you had the resolve) but you'd be a fool to think that you wouldn't pay very, very dearly.

Now, to address your first question, let's use a different scenario:

Say we have Lassie the Impudite, who comes across Timmy the incompetent boy-child. Timmy has fallen into a well and will die within 3 days if he isn't rescued. If Lassie decides to say "Screw Timmy, let him drown in the well!" I'd give her 1 point of dissonance. (Causing the death of a human through action or inaction.)

Now, here's where our thought-processes differ. I wouldn't make Lassies' dissonance recurring, because it wouldn't make sense. Here's why:

If, later on that night, Lassie changes her mind and goes out of her way to save Timmy from the well (or just calls an ambulance), I'd strike Lassies' dissonance from the record.

If someone else ended up rescuing Timmy before he expired, I'd keep Lassies' dissonance on file, but I'd allow her to work it off at a Tether. It's a raw deal, because nobody died -- but if Lassie was willing to let food go to waste, I wouldn't be entirely out-of-bounds to say that she was "dissonant enough."

I wouldn't give Lassie a point of dissonance per day for not rescuing Timmy from the well. Why? For the same reason you listed above. Why should Lassie suffer 3 dissonance (!!) for a negligent act that led to a mortal's demise, when she would only suffer 1 dissonance for unloading a pistol into the well and putting Timmy out of his misery?

Dissonance is bad enough as it is. Technically, in the example above, Lassie wouldn't get any dissonance at all until Timmy actually died.

The way I see it, if you have a situation with the potential for recurring dissonance, you should really examine it -- if an Angel of Gabriel doesn't punish a cruel man within [Celestial Forces] days, should she get 1 point of dissonance for every day she delays in punishing the cruel? 1 point for every number of days equal to her Celestial Forces? I say no. I say she gets 1 point, and she has [Celestial Forces] days to punish him before that 1 point of dissonance is cemented and she's given a new target.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Orlin

If an Angel of Gabriel doesn't punish a cruel man within [Celestial Forces] days, should she get 1 point of dissonance for every day she delays in punishing the cruel? 1 point for every number of days equal to her Celestial Forces? I say no. I say she gets 1 point, and she has [Celestial Forces] days to punish him before that 1 point of dissonance is cemented and she's given a new target.

See, I'd take your second approach -- 1 note of dissonance for every (Celestial Forces) days that have passed without punishment. You are part of the flame, and if you notice a small piece of cruelty and let it pass without action, the fire has cooled and will soon descend into ash.

Sure it's hard. But no one ever said Gabriel was an easy mistress.

As for Marisol's example -- good analysis. One thing that can complicate that enormously, of course, is if Marisol Geased herself to show up and then circumstances made it impossible.

As some here know, we had a PC Bright Lilim who got herself into a similar situation .... she had Geased herself to "contact my Sister before doing anything risky I haven't done before that would endanger myself, other angels, innocent mortals, or the plans of Archangels."' (She's known for being impulsive.) Worse yet, she had also promised not to release herself until her Sister said it was OK. So naturally, an NPC Lust team abducted her and she managed to escape, but had no means of contacting home and because of an artifact was unable to use Songs or go celestial. So she continually racked up more and more dissonance as she was forced to repeatedly take drastic actions to stay free. By the time the rest of the group found her, she was a Discordant mess and would have been self-Outcast if not for a timely Divine Intervention.

[JCD]

Orlin,

First, that was a good catch on the Will roll. Marisol has almost no choice in the matter and your analysis of what the Sisters would do if she turned into a deadbeat was well said (In this case, it didn't matter but still). One imagines what the Lilim write on the bathroom walls of the Guildhall about various deadbeat demons (Heck, they probably put in extra walls for the purpose)

I wasn't clear. Marisol had sworn the geas to someone else, similar to the situation that Rocket described. And since she had to pay someone for keeping her safe from a teams of Baalites and Belialites, yeah, it was earned. So I don't believe she gets two Will rolls and she's free.

Doesn't that work with anyone who is Celestially aware who swears a geas instead of having it inflicted on them? For example, Sid the Human Accountant who gets the good time he Needs can try to wiggle out of what he owes. Curtis the Impudite, who swears a geas to save his miserable life to a Lilim of the Game can't. Or am I mistaken? Looked for a reference but didn't find one.

If it was as easy as a couple of Will rolls, geases on demons would be a paltry thing...except for bad blood with the Lilim. One modified Will roll and one unmodified and not only are you free, but you just dinged the girl you swore a favor to.

***

I don't think the Lassie comparison works for this reason: An Impudite's Dissonance condition doesn't work like a geas. One point per DEATH, not day.

A celestial gains 1 note of dissonance for every increment
of time that passes before he fulfills his promise,
but dissonance acquired from a geas doesn’t require a
new dissonance roll (see p. 57). Once the geas is fulfilled,
the associated dissonance vanishes.

Other then that, I agree with all you said about recurring Dissonance and Gabriel.

As an added note, if Curtis waits a week to call his Boss, he has 7 Dissonance...but doesn't need to make a Dissonance roll! So it seems one can't Fall or go Renegade from Geas Dissonance. As soon as he does call his boss, all seven vanish...as would any human injury.

Edited to add: Marisol has the hook set by agreeing to it. She's sworn the geas. The important thing is that she still is not forced to fly the red eye if she doesn't want to. A geas isn't mind control or action control. Not sure if that is what you are infering.

For example: Let's say that Marisol had the geas inflicted upon her. A geas/6. She gets it called. All that does is set the hook, not make her have to fly to Columbus.

[JCD]

Let's see if I got this straight and excuse me if I walk through this slow:

We have Marisol the Lilim and Sid the Human accountant. She fulfills a Need of his (best left to the imagination of the reader) and has a geas hook of 3.

When she OFFERS to do the favor, he does not need to accept (annoying but possible, particularly if she had to do a lot of leg work). IF he accepts, then she has a hook, a form of Discord visible only to a Superior and only if he squints.

Later that week, Marisol (with 4 Celestial forces) needs something from Sid. She approaches him for a copy of his business' books. Nothing secret and mostly in the SEC filings, but still dodgy enough that he doesn't like it.

When she first approaches him, he must make a Will roll at -3 or the hook sets. IF he does resist, she gets a point of Dissonance, but most likely he won't. She gets to ask him again in a few days, but it's a straight Will roll. If he fails, her Dissonance disappears. If he doesn't, she's screwed.


(Here was the point that was getting me messed up) Even IF he fails the geas and gets hooked, he still doesn't have to pass over the books. He still has free will to do or not do what the geas holder demands. But if he doesn't, he gets 4 body hits for every time interval he fails (in this case, I would say every day)

If Sid was a Celestial and failed the initial or second Will roll, he would get a point of dissonance every time interval.

Everything goes away when a) he passes over the books, b) he resists at least once (after all, she doesn't have to ask a second time), c) she soul dies, d) he dies (soul dies for a Celestial) or e) (It is to laugh) she actually releases him from the promise.

Correct?

[Orlin]

I wasn't clear. Marisol had sworn the geas to someone else, similar to the situation that Rocket described. And since she had to pay someone for keeping her safe from a teams of Baalites and Belialites, yeah, it was earned. So I don't believe she gets two Will rolls and she's free.

I completely forgot to take that into consideration, given the circumstances. If Marisol geased herself, she would be faced with one of two options: to be where she said she was going to be to deliver her report, or suffer dissonance until she fulfills her promise. She would not get a Will roll to avoid it.

"And if necessary, a Lilim can make a promise of her own, imposing a Geas on herself to ensure that she makes good on her own promises. This gives her dissonance until she fulfills her word, as she may not resist her own Geas."

--In Nomine Core Rulebook, page 148

The time-increment factor for incurring dissonance seems to be what's confusing us (me), particularly given the nature of the example above. In order to clarify it, I took a look at the Core Guide and checked out Geas as a form of discord.

Apparently, the "time allotted to complete the task" helps to determine the level of the Geas. It's worded in such a way as to make it really tricky, but essentially, if you give me a burden and the amount of time it takes me to complete the burden is reasonably about one hour (drive to the library, sign up for a library card and get me this book,") it counts as a Geas/1.

Alternatively, you could give me a task that reasonably takes a day, a week, a month or a year (Geas/2-6.) From my understanding, the increment at which I would accrue "recurring dissonance" would be equal to the increment of time that it takes for my task to complete. If you decide to give me less time to complete a required task, you would also, presumably, reduce the interval at which I'd accrue dissonance.

So, let's say you want me to lay low and gather information on someone. Let's say that the GM decides that getting accurate information on this person would reasonably take about a week; you decide you want your first report within the day. If you refer to the chart (Core Rulebook, pp. 88), that would take a Geas/3 and bump it up to a Geas/4. Presumably, if I self-geased and then didn't report to you on time, I'd suffer 1 dissonance per day until I arrived.

Here's what's weird about this: if I self-geas with, "I promise officially to go to a nearby library and check out the book, Angels & Demons, by Dan Brown, which I will give to you upon my return," I get a rate of dissonance equal to one per hour until you get your book, and that's on a Geas/1! Granted, it all goes away when I give you the book...but still!

Do you suppose that you could spike the level of the Geas to shorten the "interval time" without shortening the time that you've allotted for the task to be complete?

If I self-geased with, "I promise officially that I will have a full report by next Wednesday at 10:00AM -- and not an hour later," and then swore a Geas/5 instead of a Geas/3 (treating the Geas as if you'd only given me an hour to work with for a seven day job), every hour that I kept you waiting would smack me with a point of dissonance, would it not?

Doesn't that work with anyone who is Celestially aware who swears a geas instead of having it inflicted on them?

Very good catch. I didn't see this until I cross-referenced the Infernal Player's Guide (page 50), but what you're referring to -- from a Celestial -- is known as a promise.

If Betharan, Lilim of the Game, decides to spare Curtis, the mewling Impudite of Lust, from a near-eternal existence of suffering, she could spend a moment of concentration and take an unspecified promise. This promise would manifest as the Geas discord (in this case, a Geas/6,) presumably at a level equal to the need(s) that was met in exchange.

In exchange for Curtis' promise, Betharan would get a Geas-token -- completely different from a Geas-hook. This token is a Celestial object that usually manifests as a little heart-shaped gem that, when focused on, will summon up an image of Curtis, as he appeared when he swore his promise. Betharan could change the appearance of the Geas-token if she so desired; she could make it into a broach, an earring, or even a playing card with a gem-encrusted symbol. I think it just has to be gem-like.

The Geas would manifest around Curtis' Celestial form as well, but it would be as a form of bondage. A collar, an armlet with a keyhole, a fancy leg iron...you get the idea.

I don't think the Lassie comparison works for this reason: An Impudite's Dissonance condition doesn't work like a geas. One point per DEATH, not day.

Yes, I agree. Technically an Impudite *can* get dissonance from allowing a mortal to die as a result of inaction (I'd probably change it to "causing the death of a mortal, either directly or indirectly."), but he should only get 1 dissonance as a result, because a mortal can only die once.

Someone else brought up an almost-identical example of this in another thread and stated that they would shell out one point per day, which is why I used it. I think the only difference is that I'd be willing to shell out the dissonance in advance and shave it off if the Impudite went back and saved the human from death.

Edited to add: Marisol has the hook set by agreeing to it. She's sworn the geas. The important thing is that she still is not forced to fly the red eye if she doesn't want to. A geas isn't mind control or action control. Not sure if that is what you are inferring.

Yeah, my bad. It came out wrong because I was actually mistaken.

I was under the impression that if Marisol failed her Will roll, she would have to go -- and given that the Will roll was near impossible to make, I assumed that she'd probably fail.

In fact, failing a Will roll just "sets the hook" and turns a potential Geas into an actual Geas. Once the hook sets, Marisol is affected as if she possessed the Geas discord (which, in fact, she would.) Swearing a promise (specified or unspecified) to a Lilim is basically the equivalent of setting the hook yourself.

...and if that last paragraph is correct (as I'm *almost* sure it is!), the rest of your post is right on the money.

P.S. In an attempt to back up some of my statements, I came across an interesting aside (I actually learned a lot from writing this all out.) Geas, with a capital G, is the noun; geas, with a lowercase g, is a verb. Cool, huh?

P.P.S. Rocket Man, you wouldn't be at all out of line to operate like that. I just feel like Servitors of Gabriel have it way too rough as it is, y'know? I mean, I understand that it's their responsibility to punish the cruel, but they're the only angels I know of who are all but guaranteed to have an attunement that comes with not only a stipulation, but a dissonance condition.