DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

See also WSRB page 7: "DX ADJUSTMENTS DUE TO TYPE OF TARGET (FOR EITHER CASTING OF SPELLS OR PHYSICAL ATTACKS )"

So spells suffer the same penalties.

Also see
ITL 133: "Most flying creatures may attack foes on the ground. This attack will also be at -4 DX"
and
ITL 25: "so if he/she attacks while in the air, his/her DX will be adjusted by -2 for regular physical attacks or magic spells cast on another"

So if a flying dragon attacks a ground target is it -4, -2, or zero adjustment?

Why is anyone confused by the Flight spell listing? It looks pretty clear to me.

A flying dragon is not someone using a Flight spell, and is not someone unused to flight, so of course a dragon does not suffer the -2 penalty for a Flight spell user?

Flying creatures make melee attacks on figures on the ground at -4 to hit. Dragon fire attacks from the air are at no penalty other than for range.

Also add the -1 to hit for every 10 feet of vertical distance

[hcobb]

Who is the multihex flying target in the Wizard boardgame?
In ITL you have -4 to hit the flying dragon because she is flying then +3 to hit her for being an oversized target. (Which only applies to ranged weapons because she's flying above sword's reach.)

[phiwum]

I'm not seeing inconsistency when the flyer is attacking.

A normal flyer has -4 DX in regular attacks on groundlings or other flyers (ITL 133, Aerial Combat).

A cheater (one flying with a flight spell) is a bit odd. They're -2 DX to hit groundlings but -6 DX to hit other flyers (ITL 25, Flight Spell).

But these results are only a little odd, not inconsistent in the way that attacking flyers seems to be. I have to say "seems to be", because to see the inconsistencies, there are little inferences being made. For instance, in the Flight Spell, we see

Originally Posted by ITL 25,Flight Spell

Any attack on a flying (one-hex) creature
is at -4 DX.

The parenthetical "one-hex" strongly suggests that the rule is different for larger or smaller critters, but the other quoted bits show no difference at all. Hence, it is an inferred inconsistency (but it's a pretty obvious inference, given how written English generally works).

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Who is the multihex flying target in the Wizard boardgame?
In ITL you have -4 to hit the flying dragon because she is flying then +3 to hit her for being an oversized target. (Which only applies to ranged weapons because she's flying above sword's reach.)

Except when she's not flying above sword's reach, which happens whenever she chooses to engage a target on the ground.

For that matter, the bonus for being oversized may be less than +3 depending on sight lines. I guess you're thinking of a 4-hex dragon, but the recent context that made me think about these things involved a low-flying 7-hex dragon. There was not a +6 bonus for attacking her, since she wasn't high enough so that the soft underbelly (with the same 5 hit armor as elsewhere) was visible.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Except when she's not flying above sword's reach, which happens whenever she chooses to engage a target on the ground.

For that matter, the bonus for being oversized may be less than +3 depending on sight lines. I guess you're thinking of a 4-hex dragon, but the recent context that made me think about these things involved a low-flying 7-hex dragon. There was not a +6 bonus for attacking her, since she wasn't high enough so that the soft underbelly (with the same 5 hit armor as elsewhere) wasn't visible.

+4 is the max bonus allowed for shooting at a multihex target.

[phiwum]

Thanks, Shostak. I didn't recall that.

[Skarg]

I'm not sure why people are confused. The only thing that looks very off to me is the Legacy GM Screen, which lists the basic Wizard notion that multi-hex flying targets get a fixed penalty (unlike what ITL says, but fans of simple might prefer that).

The -2 DX for a Flight spell user making a melee attack on a ground figure, while such attacks by natural fliers are at -4 DX, seems like a possibly unintended advantage caused by the spell being written for Wizard, and the -4 penalty for fliers attacking ground targets being a later rule that appeared in Advanced Melee. Since it's a magic spell, though, the GM can just choose whether they think the version of the Flight spell in their games somehow makes it easier to attack people on the ground than a natural flier (so -2 total) or whether it should be harder (so -6 total).

Otherwise, using ITL rules:

All flying targets are at -4 to hit (unless "in a tunnel").

All ranged attacks on multi-hex figures are at +1 for each hex of the target the shooter can see that isn't blocked by anything (including the creature itself) For example, this tends to mean a 4-hex dragon is often at +1 to be hit, sometimes +0, sometimes +2, MAYBE +3 IF the GM figures that the dragon is overhead so all 4 hexes are visible).

There's also a -1 to-hit penalty per 10 feet a target is above or below the attacker.

[Shostak]

It's confusing because the rules do not appear intentional. If this was all laid out under the section on flying figures, with an explanation of why a creature that evolved to fly and swoop down to attack terrestrial targets does so at a disadvantage compared to a person utterly unfamiliar with flying, it would appear deliberate. As it is, it comes across (to me, at any rate) as the result of an oversight.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

:

All flying targets are at -4 to hit (unless "in a tunnel").

I'll repeat the quotes from my opening post.

Originally Posted by ITL 25 (Flight Spell)

Any attack on a flying (one-hex) creature
is at -4 DX.

Originally Posted by ITL 104 (Movement/Flight)

The -4 DX to hit a flying creature should not be applied to a flying person or
larger creature in a tunnel...

(Remember, too, the -4 DX penalty for attacking any flying creature.)

Originally Posted by ITL 113 (Bola)

Note: any attack on a flying creature (except a magical
attack) is at a DX adjustment of -4. Fliers are hard to hit.
Attacking the wings of a flying creature is at -6!

So, all attacks? Or just attacks on one-hex critters? Or just non-magical attacks? And what's a magical attack?

It's the fact that these three excerpts are evidently inconsistent that prompted the thread.

The other two issues (penalties for attacks from flyers and bonus to hit multi-hex flyers) seem fairly straightforward.

But when you say that, just using the rules, you conclude "All flying targets are at -4 to hit (unless "in a tunnel")," you're only using bits of the rules and you're glossing over what you're counting as an attack.

[Axly Suregrip]

I see the problem.

Regarding ITL 113, "Note: any attack on a flying creature (except a magical attack) is at a DX adjustment of -4.":

Magical attacks in this case are definitely Thrown spells. These are not affected by dodging, nor by flying.

BUT there's more...

I agree it makes it sound like all spells. But missile spells always operate like missile weapons, so I would say these still get the DX -4.

And I was going to say creation spells don't target beings but Rope spell does. So, I would also apply the DX -4 if trying to put Rope on a flier within range.