Finish Him! (HtH and the Pin)

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

"A character cannot attempt a pin unless he has no ready weapon and is in HTH with a single foe."
— The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth (page 117).
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Given that a pinned opponent is helpless for two turns...

Is it possible to draw a dagger and finish the pinned opponent during those two turns? Or, does the one doing the pinning have to remain weaponless to maintain the pin?

Thanks.

[Shostak]

The pinning rules are problematic; they are very coarse-grained, even by TFT’s standards, and entirely too brief, which leaves questions unanswered. I’ve had GMs rule that pinning requires both of your hands, so you have to end the pin to draw a weapon. Others have ruled that a pinned foe is helpless, which makes it possible to execute them. Neither of those seem reasonable to me. I recommend rejecting the pinning rules entirely, and have substituted my own HTH and grappling rules.

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Thank you, Shostak.
I'll have to spend some time considering your alternate rules.

[Axly Suregrip]

This is how I do pinning:

It is clear that it takes both hands to pin someone since you may not be armed to do so. And since you are unarmed you may not just kill a helpless pinned foe. If you have a teammate nearby, he can come over and do the deed, if there is no urgency or combat going on. Or since you are technically still in HTH, roll 3/DX to draw your dagger, but if you succeed you have released the pin.

The bottom line is it benefits you in the following situations:

- if you have an armed friend nearby (for either killing or intimidation)

- if you believe it will take you a few turns to draw your dagger & you are stronger than your foe, now you have all the time you need to get that dagger out. Even if you are not stronger (say you have UC skills) it may be better to go for a pin before attempting to draw the dagger. Worst case is you are weaker but still get two shots at drawing.

[Skarg]

The pinning rules are unclear on that point. I allow attacks while pinning, but not automatic killing.

I also think the pinning rules are too simple and entirely broken the way they have Unarmed Combat talent so overpowering.

If one doesn't fix them with house rules, they are essentially automatic for anyone with more Unarmed Combat talent, against practically anyone/anything.

GURPS has much better rules for pinning and HTH.

[hcobb]

Can you pin a creature that's too strong for you to shield rush?
Or can two halflings skin alive a 14-hex dragon?

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Skarg

If one doesn't fix them with house rules, they are essentially automatic for anyone with more Unarmed Combat talent, against practically anyone/anything.

To me, that's what Unarmed Combat is really for. I've had friends who studied martial arts, and one who was an MP for 20+ years. If they wanted to get you, you got got, and stayed got until they *chose* to let you go.

Basically, if you get into HTH with a martial artist, you've already lost.

Of course, you should do what's the most fun for you. If it doesn't ring true for you, house rule it!

[Shostak]

That might be true, but one could also say that, realistically, if you got hit with a battle axe, you would be a goner. That doesn’t make for a fun game.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That might be true, but one could also say that, realistically, if you got hit with a battle axe, you would be a goner. That doesn’t make for a fun game.

Agreed. Getting hit with a battle axe wouldn't be fun. ;)

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by tomc

To me, that's what Unarmed Combat is really for. I've had friends who studied martial arts, and one who was an MP for 20+ years. If they wanted to get you, you got got, and stayed got until they *chose* to let you go.

Basically, if you get into HTH with a martial artist, you've already lost.

Of course, you should do what's the most fun for you. If it doesn't ring true for you, house rule it!

Yes, if there's a significant ability gap, that makes sense, but:

1) I think there should be something to represent the possibility that you may be able to avoid getting completely defeated in HTH, using your own abilities, other than the HTH initiation roll and hoping your foe doesn't make their roll to pin you.

2) I don't think the RAW mechanic works well at all. I think the whole-die-per-UC-level is too severe, and there's a fundamental problem with letting the roll to pin someone ever drop below 3/DX (which is easy for strong characters anyway!). At a minimum, I think there should be a minimum 3/DX roll to pin someone, and it seems to me that will still represent what you described well.

And, I also think there need to be major modifiers and limits for things like pinning someone/something much larger or stronger than you. The GM can/should simply rule "no, you can't pin the dragon", but I'd rather there be modifiers in the rules to help people out and handle edge cases well.

Here is a shot at a house rule fix I posted long ago: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=162738