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Old 12-26-2015, 11:42 AM   #1
Pseudonym
 
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Default Hard and Fast Alchemy/Crafting with Powers rules?

Does anyone know if there are any sources for hard and fast but slightly free-form alchemy/herb lore rules?

http://pseudoboo.blogspot.com/2015/1...game-like.html

I wrote this just a bit ago, and it is based on TL3 Dungeon Fantasy sensibilities, but I feel like it is missing something. In summary, what I have is:

1. Stat power of potion as a sorcery spell.
2. (Totally arbitrary number warning) It felt like the difficulty of a potion could be determined by every ten character points required to pay the full cost of the spell, so for example a 1d healing potion based off of the 32 point heal spell would have a -3 penalty.
3. Scrounging for each component would take 1dx5 minutes/ components (eg, two components, each component would take 1dx5 minutes/2) for a Quick Gadgeteer and 1 hour (or 1dx5 hours, not sure what would feel more appropriate) divided by the number of components for a non quick gadgeteer. Precedent for these time ranges are in Sages. The -3 penalty is applied to the scrounging roll. Naturalist, survival, prospecting, etc, might be used as support skills representing, "I know exactly where blue herbs grow in a mountain biome." Also apply biome penalties according to DF16 if desired.
4. Use the appropriate crafting skill ala pharmacy (herbal), herbal lore, alchemy, etc. with the penalty calculated in step 2. time is calculated similar to time from step 3.

I feel like it's a little flat, but functional. Some changes I was thinking
A) Maybe if a penalty exceeds -5/-10 (totally arbitrary) it necessitates a difficult quest (eg: because a phoenix feather for a resurrection potion is so rare, you can only find it if you search the mountain at the end of the world, the only place in recorded history where man has witnessed a phoenix) with progressive threshold breaches representing more difficult ingredients. Maybe it might be fair to knock the penalties down in this case. Maybe it should be knocked down some but not a lot (EG: a resurrection ability exceeds 200 points as a spell, so it would elicit a -20 penalty. Maybe if they go on the difficult quest described above, it could be chopped down to (-20/2)+remainder = -10 + remainder.
B) Maybe the penalty calculated in step 2 should instead be split as the GM sees fit between the two steps of gathering and crafting. I used the video game franchise "Monster Hunter" as an example, so maybe when creating a potion from a common herb + blue mushroom, and then combining it, the -3 could be allocated between all three of those mentioned tasks. In this case, I (Warning: subjectivity approaching) feel like the amount of the penalty should be doubled, and then allocated. For example, doubling -3 to -6, a GM might decide finding an herb is pretty easy, so that gets a -1, the mushroom gets a -2, and the actual crafting gets a -3.
C) I am not 100% sure if it is balanced against other crafting methods. Sorcery gives time tables in the scale of months, and I'm suggesting hours and minutes... though the minutes are somewhat justified by the big investment in Quick Gadgeteer and lots of difficult skills, as well as what feels like some precedence (at least for the minutes speed).

Any other documented systems similar to this? Any feedback? Does it feel like it could give alchemists/pharmacists/grenadiers a game breaking edge, especially in a Dungeon Fantasy setting?
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Old 12-26-2015, 02:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hard and Fast Alchemy/Crafting with Powers rules?

There are detailed rules for making potions with RPM in the ritual path magic book, as well as a few other supplements.

It gives all the free form of RPM (though longer casting times), with a fixed and balanced rule-set surrounding it.

You could potentially adapt the technomancy rules (another RPM variant).
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Old 12-26-2015, 03:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hard and Fast Alchemy/Crafting with Powers rules?

I've got some rules for Metatronic Generators that can do this...but they're not published yet. For now, check out Ultra-Tech Drugs (p. B426) for something built right into the game system.
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Old 12-26-2015, 03:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hard and Fast Alchemy/Crafting with Powers rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
There are detailed rules for making potions with RPM in the ritual path magic book, as well as a few other supplements.

It gives all the free form of RPM (though longer casting times), with a fixed and balanced rule-set surrounding it.

You could potentially adapt the technomancy rules (another RPM variant).
I have rpm and I was thinking about using something like that after posting this. Was thinking that maybe using the effect shaping system for rpm in the one pyramid issue might be a good kind of start for defining craft times and skill penalties. The only balancing concern is how much harder might be fair to make the system if I don't include a bunch of path skills and Magery.

I guess quick gadgetry might be a good substitute for magery, and the searching for reagents might also balance it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I've got some rules for Metatronic Generators that can do this...but they're not published yet. For now, check out Ultra-Tech Drugs (p. B426) for something built right into the game system.
Oh cool. I like metatronic generators. It's just, like I'm saying in this thread, the thing that bugs me is that metatronic generators gives me a fair price for something... I invented. But one thing that is interesting to me that is outside the scope of the original article is how to translate that dollar amount into an adventure, or at least a ball park. If I know magic item x costs 10,000 bucks, is it because I burned 10,000 worth of GURPS bucks in a magic ritual? Did I do a dangerous labor worth 4k and a ritual that cost 6k? Was it months of labor doing a job at comfortable wealth difficulty levels? Etc.

But if your article covers those types of aspects, I look forward to it!

Also, looking at the b425 Ultra-Tech Drugs, it seems like something similar, but *not quite* what I'm looking for. If I were to explain what I most want to see, consider this workflow
1. Calculate Value of an effect (Do this using powers or RPM)
2. Calculate value in terms of dollars (optional, but not difficult; we have Metatronic generators and Sorcery as two examples, or the section on ultra tech drugs as well, and probably tons of others.)
3. Determine from this price (or the advantage value/rpm energy cost) how hard it would be for John Smith, Dungeon Fantasy Artificer and Quick Gadgeteer to find supplies and create this item. (As a matter of fact, this is also spoken for in the Sages book in a way via translating $ amount to penalties to scrounging and Engineering (Gadgetry), which I extrapolate as dollar amount to scrounging and *appropriate craft skill*)

Number 1 and 2 I feel like have tons of adequate answers. 3 is a little lackluster in my brash, headstrong, and totally out of line opinion. Would it be fair, for example, for an artificer to say, "a small healing potion is worth a little over $100 in DF1, I know Quick Gadgeteering, and have alchemy and a backpack lab. I want to spend a couple of minutes in the sticks gathering ingredients and making healing potions instead of spending money?" I almost think it *might be,* but I wanted to check if it is really that easy. And even if it were, I think it might still be more fun to come up with formulas that say, "For this item, I need to scrounge this type of twig, and this type of fruit" Which, of course could be done as flavor... until John Smith, packrat Artificer, says, "I have a bunch of free time, I want to scrounge and store 30 lbs of potion reagents."
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Last edited by Pseudonym; 12-26-2015 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 12-26-2015, 04:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hard and Fast Alchemy/Crafting with Powers rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudonym View Post
Oh cool. I like metatronic generators. It's just, like I'm saying in this thread, the thing that bugs me is that metatronic generators gives me a fair price for something... I invented. But one thing that is interesting to me that is outside the scope of the original article is how to translate that dollar amount into an adventure, or at least a ball park. If I know magic item x costs 10,000 bucks, is it because I burned 10,000 worth of GURPS bucks in a magic ritual? Did I do a dangerous labor worth 4k and a ritual that cost 6k? Was it months of labor doing a job at comfortable wealth difficulty levels? Etc.

But if your article covers those types of aspects, I look forward to it!
Yes. It does. One of the things I wanted to do, but didn't have time for was to introduce a "how common is it" modifier. If you can buy raybeams off the store shelf it should be substantially cheaper than the listed cost. Metatronic Generaters II covers this topic and many many more.
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