07-31-2014, 12:24 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
I find the +3 for rangefinders to be problematic in general. I'd much rather have additional penalties for projectile weapons at long range (especially for those firing in a high ballistic arc, like artillery or grenades). A rangefinder would help mitigate the extra penalty. For line-of-sight weapons like lasers, these penalties wouldn't apply so a rangefinder would be of no help (for hitting the target at least; they may serve other functions, such as to focus the beam at the correct distance).
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07-31-2014, 12:28 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
I had some thoughts about rangefinding a while ago. In the end, the GURPS rules for range don't scale quite right (it assumes a target 2x as big, moving at 2x the speed, at 2x the distance, is no change in difficulty; that's only true as long as time of flight is negligible) and for projectile weapons the main thing rangefinders do is compensate for time of flight.
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07-31-2014, 02:47 PM | #13 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
I am going to go buy that issue of Pyramid now.
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With High-Tech weapons (where I take Acc to account for the sophistication of the tracking system) it makes no sense to fail your lock on roll (which I can only assume means that the weapon is not locked on), fire it anyway, and then have it home in on the target... And dumbfireing most (any?) of these should be out of the question. OTOH in Ultra-Tech the sophistication of the tracking system is clearly represented by the type of seeker head used. The Acc of the weapon used to fire the Homing Projectile seem like it should be more or less irelavant. Unless, that is, you take a dumbfire shot. In that case you should be back to more or less where you were before you loaded homing ammo in the first place: Rolling against Guns skill with your Acc bonus if you Aimed. I guess that is how most people would handled dumbfireing Ultra-Tech Homing Projectiles... But I am still at a loss for what the 'fail lock on -> fire anyway -> Homing Projectile rolls against its skill of 14 to hit' sequence of events is supposed to represent... Are Ultra-Tech Homing Projectiles supposed to turn civilians and children and monkeys and R.O.B. into Jack Reacher? And again: I can see an Anti-Materiel Rifle being more likely to hit then a Magnum Pistol even with a Homing Projectile but why is that the advantage that you lose if you fail to lock on? Quote:
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Same with leading running targets being more of a PitA then bullet drop and using test firing (I take it that the latter reflects the PC in that game having something like Traser Eyes although I am looking at impact points not flight path so it is less useful within a turn...maybe just a Per check?). |
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07-31-2014, 11:37 PM | #14 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
(Side note: Ahhh...GURPS forums. I've been posting on a playtest forum for an upcoming RPG that uses a newfangled "abstract" system, and well, it causes me nearly physical pain...GURPS, I will never leave you for long!)
Matthew, I think that maybe we should simply say "if you fail to lock-on, your homing projectile doesn't launch." This is binary and means that you MUST lock-on. You know what? I just had a brainstorm. What if Acc of these weapons was added to your LOCK-ON roll and represented the ease with which you could obtain lock-on, with older, lower TL models having lower Acc compared to higher ones, and then leave the actual skill of the projectile totally independent of the Acc of the launcher? I kind of like that idea! The problem is that UT and HT (unsurprisingly) have clearly used different rules for this. In HT, weapons like the Javelin have a high Acc, probably meant to be added to 10 as per Basic Set, so you can have a nice attack roll. I'd probably argue that you CAN'T fire at all unless you make the Aim roll, meaning that all Homing projectiles always get their Acc added to 10 for their skill. Anyway, it's not a huge deal, but we could unify HT and UT fairly easily if we really cared.
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-apoc527 My Campaigns Currently Playing: GURPS Banestorm: The Symmetry of Darkness Inactive: Star*Drive: 2525-Hunting for Fun and Profit My THS Campaign-In the Shadows of Venus Yrth--The Legend Begins The XCOM Apocalypse Last edited by apoc527; 07-31-2014 at 11:47 PM. |
08-01-2014, 07:28 PM | #15 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
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And yeah, I think it is reasonable (RAW even) to interpret the Acc of High-Tech homing weapons as their seeker heads' skills-10. As far as using a weapon's Acc as a bonus to the lock on roll I think that would make the roll way too easy. Unless you start adding range penalties to lock on rolls. At that point we would probably want another stat for the targeting system anyway. From what I have read in that other thread that quickly becomes a nightmare of modifiers. IDK actually, it might not be that bad if you know what you are getting into... I am still sort of at a loss for what to do about the Acc of Ultra-Tech weapons' interaction with homing projectiles. I guess if I go for full rules for targeting sensors and vision/range penalties and all that it will be a moot point. Also, I think what I said under "Homing bullets and grenades:" still applies. Maybe you can roll to hit at +4 for just trying to get the bullets into the general area of the target and each one that makes it rolls vs its homing skill? That's a lot of rolls... And, I think, might be one of those things that stretch the Rcl system a bit... |
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08-02-2014, 01:55 PM | #16 | |||||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
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-apoc527 My Campaigns Currently Playing: GURPS Banestorm: The Symmetry of Darkness Inactive: Star*Drive: 2525-Hunting for Fun and Profit My THS Campaign-In the Shadows of Venus Yrth--The Legend Begins The XCOM Apocalypse |
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08-02-2014, 02:36 PM | #17 | |||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
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I am not convinced that the same applies to, say, an Anti-Materiel Rifle vs a Tactical Missile Launcher... Yeah, probably best to come up with more specific rules that call for less rolls and work within the Rcl rules instead of stacking awkwardly on top of them...
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Use Steam? Check out the GURPS Fan Club! Melissa - Lost in Dreams - World jumping engineering student. Greg - Day 1 - SFX expert, single father, and zombie outbreak survivor. Last edited by MatthewVilter; 08-02-2014 at 02:40 PM. Reason: typo |
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08-02-2014, 02:42 PM | #18 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
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08-02-2014, 02:54 PM | #19 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
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As far as that Kromm quote goes; I am not sure what to make of it as he notes that "You specifically ignore range and speed." on the projectile's roll to hit when Basic explicitly lists speed as one of the penalties that does apply... |
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08-02-2014, 03:10 PM | #20 |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
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Re: [High-Tech, Ultra-Tech] Targeting systems questions
I'm still quite fond of the Sensor / Homing weapon rules presented in VE2. There, sensors don't automatically spot things within their range, but instead get a Scanner Rating based on their sensitivity. Rolls (usually Electronics Operations specialties) to detect and identify objects with a sensor take the standard range and size modifiers, plus a variety of modifiers based on the type of sensor (passive sonar can more easily detect noisy propulsion systems, IR has a bonus against hot targets like jet exhaust pipes, various stealth systems give penalties to different sensors, etc). Once detection has been established, it can be "improved" on subsequent turns to get more detailed information, and contact can be "handed off" to other sensors more easily.
Homing weapon lock-ons are handled in a similar fashion, depending on the type of sensor they're equipped with. Once a lock is established, launching the missile is a simple Gunner +4 roll (to hit the right button, basically; I'd probably drop that roll unless the operating is untrained). My one sticking point with the 3rd edition rules is that, once a lock is established, the missile will hit automatically unless the target uses an appropriate countermeasure or successfully Dodges. I'd prefer if there was an actual attack roll at the end of the missile flight, using the skill of the missile guidance, with the possibility of advanced missiles making a "Deceptive" attack to penalize the target's Dodge roll. |
Tags |
combat, high-tech, ranged attacks, tactical shooting, ultra-tech |
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