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Old 12-25-2020, 05:47 PM   #1
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Default Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

I'm probably misreading something, but here's my current understanding:

Punch: Basic thrust crushing damage.
Karate punch with DX+1 skill: Basic thrust crushing damage at +2 per die.
Exotic hand Strike: Karate roll at -1 for... Basic thrust crushing damage at +2 per die, and you can hurt your hand if you face any DR, not just DR 3+?

There's gotta be something I'm missing, here...
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Old 12-25-2020, 05:53 PM   #2
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

You are missing something. A punch is thurst-1 crushing. Exotic Hand Strike is the equivalent of using your hand as brass knuckles, giving you thrust crushing damage (without the -1). But that extra point of damage carries the increased risk of hurting yourself.

Edit: Check the Punch entry on the weapons table on B271.
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Old 12-25-2020, 05:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
You are missing something. A punch is thurst-1 crushing. Exotic Hand Strike is the equivalent of using your hand as brass knuckles, giving you thrust crushing damage (without the -1). But that extra point of damage carries the increased risk of hurting yourself.
Thanks; I guess I didn't search far enough to find the table entry.
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Old 12-26-2020, 09:03 AM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
A punch is thurst-1 crushing.
Exotic Hand Strike is the equivalent of using your hand as brass knuckles,
giving you thrust crushing damage (without the -1).
But that extra point of damage carries the increased risk of hurting yourself.
Now that OP has me looking at MA71 it's interesting to think about how making a "claw-shaped fist" or "protruding knuckle" increases both knockback and blunt trauma.

Lethal Strike (MA85) doesn't have that problem since Piercing damage doesn't cause knockback at all, but I think the intent of EHS was to have a non-cinematic means of boosting damage without letting you target eyes/vitals or get the min1 dmg

Net -1 to skill is because it has a when it has a +1 drawback (MA92: increased injury potential) and a -2 benefit (MA91: +1 dmg) but maybe more factors could be added in?

Normally I'd suggest an Armor Divisor as an alternative to avoid the knockback/trauma but "extra damage to fleshy or fragile targets" doesn't sound like you'd be dealing with DR in the intended scenarios.

What if instead of +1 basic crushing damage we made it -1 and then +3 w/ limitations of No Knockback / No Blunt Trauma?

This would give it even more increased injury while making it less force transfer
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Old 12-26-2020, 09:23 AM   #5
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Now that OP has me looking at MA71 it's interesting to think about how making a "claw-shaped fist" or "protruding knuckle" increases both knockback and blunt trauma.

Lethal Strike (MA85) doesn't have that problem since Piercing damage doesn't cause knockback at all, but I think the intent of EHS was to have a non-cinematic means of boosting damage without letting you target eyes/vitals or get the min1 dmg

Net -1 to skill is because it has a when it has a +1 drawback (MA92: increased injury potential) and a -2 benefit (MA91: +1 dmg) but maybe more factors could be added in?

Normally I'd suggest an Armor Divisor as an alternative to avoid the knockback/trauma but "extra damage to fleshy or fragile targets" doesn't sound like you'd be dealing with DR in the intended scenarios.

What if instead of +1 basic crushing damage we made it -1 and then +3 w/ limitations of No Knockback / No Blunt Trauma?

This would give it even more increased injury while making it less force transfer
By and large, GURPS publications try to keep things relatively simple in order to make them gameable. Honestly, a lot of damage bonuses* shouldn't increase knockback (blunt trauma is probably fine), but they do because it's a lot simpler, and you typically only see a difference in edge cases.

*Examples other than Exotic Hand Strike would include the bonuses for Brawling, Boxing, and Karate, the bonus for using a fistload, the bonus for putting a short spike on a shield, and the effective bonus for using a (flanged) mace instead of a round mace. These are all examples of hitting with a more efficient striking surface, which should enhance injury and (to an extent) armor penetration but not knockback. Indeed, some of these should probably reduce knockback, essentially taking the energy that would go into pushing the target back and using it to instead cause more injury.
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Old 12-26-2020, 10:13 AM   #6
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
a lot of damage bonuses* shouldn't increase knockback (blunt trauma is probably fine), but they do because it's a lot simpler, and you typically only see a difference in edge cases.
]
For example, You only get Knockback on punches on average attacks with ST19+ and Boxing or Karate at Dex+2 or higher.
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Old 12-26-2020, 04:58 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
For example, You only get Knockback on punches on average attacks with ST19+ and Boxing or Karate at Dex+2 or higher.
2d-1 average 6 thrust, 5 punch, up to 7 via the 2 per die?

That'd be ST-2 for someone ST9

one way around this might be to take some kind of "rolling with blow is the default" policy (like with telegraphic attack) where only skilled people can opt NOT to attempt to roll with blow

otherwise you would instinctively attempt it (and at low DX prob fail) but suffer double the knockback

in which case to knock back someone with ST 10 you'd only need 4 damage?
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Old 12-26-2020, 08:38 PM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
2d-1 average 6 thrust, 5 punch, up to 7 via the 2 per die?
No, Boxing or Karate at Dex+2 gives +2 pts per die. That takes the 2D-2 base Punch for ST 19 up to 2D+2.

Unskilled Punch for ST 17-18 is 1D+1 but the bonus for being skilled can only take that up to 1D+3. If you roll a 5 or 6 on that single die you could do the 8pts needed for Knockback v. ST10. Even w/ Exotic Hand Strike you still need to roll a 4.
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Old 12-28-2020, 03:00 PM   #9
Plane
 
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Default Re: Exotic Hand Strike - actually worse?

when we look at it like this, the +2/die is more like the "true force" of limbs which requires a certain skill to use properly, with lesser skill meaning you lose potential force your Striking ST gives could give

if we're looking at an average of 9 damage for karate-maxed Striking ST 19, that could knock back someone with ST 11

if we mandate RWB attempts for unskilled then it gives us more knockback since then we're talking about 18dmg which would knock back a:
1 yard for ST 12-20 (1x18)
2 yards for ST 9-11 (2x9)
3 yards for ST 7-8 (3x6)
4 yards for ST 6 (4x4)
5 yards for ST 5 (5x3)
6 yards for ST 4 (9x2)
18 yards for SE 1-3 (18x1)
Actually thinking if you don't want to instinctively RWB maybe you should make a "DX roll to brace".

This could be the difference between "just HP" (knockback from a surprise attack, or where you fail DX and don't brace properly) vs striking ST + HP combined.

If we're using this approach I'm thinking maybe drop the -2 (HP 1 and HP3 could be different in terms of knocking around) and just it takes 1/2 HP to knock back HP 1 yard, but if they roll to brace it also takes 1/2 Striking ST because they braced their HP, which is mutually exclusive with effort to RWB since you're not resisting knockback.
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