Silly Cars

[swordtart]

The HMG version posted in 43's pickup assumes a 350lb fully loaded with standard (450lb with HD) making it the same weight as the VMG. This is the version under CWVD my default tool.

As it stands you are paying a 30% premium to get (what is in effect) a 1 space VMG with a -1 to hit penalty but an extra DP. I can barely stomach that, but a 300lb version would be even cheesier.

You shouldn't be able to trade away weight and space for such a minor cost increase. Only the fact that you have already upgraded the ammo (and the VMG can get an extra +2 damage) and that the ammo is therefore weighing twice as much makes it tolerable. BUT you can cheese the hell out of it if you are willing to skimp on ammo as well - for every 11 rounds you drop out of that deep 160 shot magazine you can have 10 points of armour. Are you going to need 160 2d damage? We normally see about 50% hits and at average damage even 80 shots is going to do 560 damage.

[swordtart]

As for the Convoy. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. At lot of attacks are to disrupt the convoy rather than actually salvage it. Forcing it to split up is going to achieve that.

Usually you sacrifice escorts to protect the rig rather than vice-versa. In a stern chase a scout up front isn't going to help you. It will be your tail-end-Charlie who encounters the pickup. If he is so far back that the convoy can escape then clearly the pickup won't be attacking him and it becomes at best a non-encounter for you. He may just elect to cut-out the tail-end-Charlie.

That tail-end-Charlie has to stick around to muck up the road with his DWs (or rarely engage directly with rear-fire weapons) to protect the convoy, if he is going to run off into the woods when it all kicks off you might as well have not brought him. Once he is no longer protecting the convoy, he can be ignored and your midguard or possibly the rig itself becomes target for tonight.

I also don't agree with artificially limiting what weapons you can carry. If it is a legal design then surely it must be allowed. If the rules permit 8 HMG on a Pick-Up then it also allows 4 x HMGs per turret/sponson on an oversized vehicle. As trailer weight is effectively infinite and extra magazines go in the body, this would make a van trailer with 7 turrets/sponsons with a specialist gunner per turret (and the ability to target top armour) awesome. Expensive, but against the cost of the rig a low insurance premium.

[swordtart]

As for the Convoy. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. At lot of attacks are to disrupt the convoy rather than actually salvage it. Forcing it to split up is going to achieve that.

Usually you sacrifice escorts to protect the rig rather than vice-versa. In a stern chase a scout up front isn't going to help you. It will be your tail-end-Charlie who encounters the pickup. If he is so far back that the convoy can escape then clearly the pickup won't be attacking him and it becomes at best a non-encounter for you. He may just elect to cut-out the tail-end-Charlie.

That tail-end-Charlie has to stick around to muck up the road with his DWs (or rarely engage directly with rear-fire weapons) to protect the convoy, if he is going to run off into the woods when it all kicks off you might as well have not brought him. Once he is no longer protecting the convoy, he can be ignored and your midguard or possibly the rig itself becomes target for tonight.

I also don't agree with artificially limiting what weapons you can carry. If it is a legal design then surely it must be allowed. If the rules permit 8 HMG on a Pick-Up then it also allows 4 x HMGs per turret/sponson on an oversized vehicle. As trailer weight is effectively infinite and extra magazines go in the body, this would make a van trailer with 7 turrets/sponsons with a specialist gunner per turret (and the ability to target top armour) awesome. Expensive, but against the cost of the rig a low insurance premium*.

*A 40' Van with 4xlinked HMG+HD Sponsons (FL,FR,BL,BR,B) and 4xlinked HMG+HD Universal turrets (FT, BT) with Solid Tyres, HD Shocks 6x10pt Wheelguards and Hubs, and 440 points sloped plastic and 170pts sloped metal costs $200,475 and weighs 43,700lb (with 7 gunners each with a HRSWC) and has 44 spaces free for cargo. A full rig will run another 16,200lb so assuming a Super plant you have useful cargo of 10 tons. As this is probably going to be the gunship this isn't unreasonable (since it represents over 400lb per space - not much cargo is that heavy).

Any stern chaser against this will likely be in arc of 5 independently targeted turrets/sponsons with the others able to bear with only minor manoeuvring. Each is likely to inflict a D3 hazard even if the potential 8d6 per turret doesn't shred the target. This will put your target at -6 HS in double quick time and at road speeds this can be as fatal as the actual damage. As I say expensive, but likely decisive in a few volleys. Just don't skimp on the tractor. If you want you can carry extra ammo if you are willing to sacrifice space but it is probably better to carry bulk ammo boxes and park up to reload.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Racer

This has worked incredibly well & prevents one-shot bloodbaths that ruin gaming experience .

My solution to this: I don't run "Division 60 Blitzkriegs"; D40 is about my upper-limit.

The Pickup is based on my _MVR-[n]K_ design -- the "0" has a PP and ATG; "1" has PP and BC; "2" has the 150cid-with-upgrades, and *TWO* BCs. I wanted to see if a viable HMG-with-HD design could be created; I appear to have succeeded. >:)

(I am of the opinion: The HMG is Seriously Munchkin; in my rewrite, it has been drastically rewritten.)

[Racer]

I've lifted & carried a water cooled , tripod mounted WWI or WWII Vickers Machine Gun for a reenactment demo in Dorset . Weighed under 100lbs without blank ammo & case . Total weight with 600 round ammo box was about 109lbs if I recall correctly .

By Car Wars rules a Tripod HMG with HD ammo would weight 350lbs with '20 shots' - around 200 rounds if you hybridize fire rates stated in GURPS Autoduel & State of the Art part 1 article by a Certain Someone in ADQ 7/2 (Spring 2039/1989) .

The Heavy Machine Gun firing Armour Piercing Explosive Bullets featuring in the revamped (2009 ?) Knight Rider series , was moved by a single normal sized guy . Okay that's TV , but any high velocity gun capable of 'compromising' nu K.I.T.T.'s Adaptive Armour has to be pretty hefty . Just not 350lbs , 400lbs , 450lbs or 575lb (Long Barrelled) hefty IMHO .

I'll have to ask T-Rex how much a .303 (Car Wars MG caliber) Machine Gun weighs , as his Father is ex-RAF & handled them in the '50's . I know you didn't want to drop one on your foot ...

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by Racer

I'll have to ask T-Rex how much a .303 (Car Wars MG caliber) Machine Gun weighs , as his Father is ex-RAF & handled them in the '50's . I know you didn't want to drop one on your foot ...

Well, the classic Bren is ~ 19-23 lb depending on mark. That's without ammunition, without tripod, but with the built-in bipod.

Of course Car Wars has a century plus of better materials tech, and I don't even know whether CW guns are regarded as caseless or not.

[swordtart]

Weights for real weapons do not apply to CW.

Just sayin' :)

Also remember that half the weight of the gun as listed is the vehicular mount. Tripod versions weight half +25lb for the tripod.

Vickers is .303, not sure what that would be in CW terms. Lets say normal MG. The Lewis Gun is also .303 and about half the weight of a Vickers Gun.

Part of the problem with CW MGs is that the damage is a function of the power of the bullet and the rate of fire. Gatling weapons fire more rounds, but each hit is no more powerful. With plastic armour it doesn't matter as it is the total damage you take, but with metal armour getting hit with 12 bullets that do 1 damage is different to getting hit with 1 that does 12 damage.

The nomenclature of HMG can mean a MG that fires a larger bullet (M2 at .5") or in some cases one that fires a lighter round, but can fire sustained like the Vickers with it's water jacket (250 rounds per belt). The Bren is a light machine gun not because of the power of it's round (it's still .303) but because it doesn't have the mag capacity (30 rounds nominal) or the cooling to fire for extended periods. The Lewis gun sits in the middle at 50-100 rounds.

HMG would be good enough doing d6+3 damage by default (like the HAVR). If you went HD it would be d6+4 which would make it on average better than an unmodified Vulcan (but couldn't quite reach it's maximum damage).

But if you are going to do that you would be better coming up with a systematic approach and re-statting all weapons.

[43Supporter]

For "real world" weapon and gear weights, I look to Other Sources. :)

Sad to say: Weights are one of the places where OG CW shows its age, and the lack of real-world-experience the writers had with such things. Most weights would need to be halved (or more) to come close to "real world" values.

[juris]

'Realism' led to the 2.5e jumping rules.

Also, HMG is broken. Base damage should have been 1d+2. Then it works perfectly.

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

For "real world" weapon and gear weights, I look to Other Sources. :)

Sad to say: Weights are one of the places where OG CW shows its age, and the lack of real-world-experience the writers had with such things. Most weights would need to be halved (or more) to come close to "real world" values.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by juris

'Realism' led to the 2.5e jumping rules.

Also, HMG is broken. Base damage should have been 1d+2. Then it works perfectly.

I think that may be too stingy.

If you compare a linked pair vs VMG. $3050 vs $2000, 500lb vs 350lb, same 2 spaces. $100 and 10lb per shot (pair) vs $35 and 5lb, To hit 7 vs To hit 6.

That seems a lot of pain for +4 damage especially as you could get +2 by just upgrading the ammo on the VMG which brings the ammo cost and weight to parity.

You might consider the fact that you still have upgrade potential to make it a 1d+3 weapon with HD ammo, enough to compensate, but $100 and 10lb per shot is far too much for a +1 damage. If you allowed HD ammo to be +2 (as it is a 1.5 D damage weapon rather than a 1D weapon) it would be worth considering.

If it was 1D+2 but the base gun weighed only 200lb, all else being kept the same I'd be much happier.