Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I meant "Computer RPGs", if "Computer" in this case doesn't mean "electronic micro-computer" then GURPS (and all games that use pencils, paper, dice, and arithmetic) are Computer Role-Playing Games in that they use computation.

This seems like a plausible way of distinguishing them from freeform (systemless) RPGs. I guess the reason the term isn't popular is because back in the dawn of RPGs, freeforms weren't seen as a big cultural phenomenon.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This seems like a plausible way of distinguishing them from freeform (systemless) RPGs. I guess the reason the term isn't popular is because back in the dawn of RPGs, freeforms weren't seen as a big cultural phenomenon.

I suspect it's because 'computer' has, for quite some time, not been commonly used in the way you are using it.

It's still a valid usage, but it's not the standard.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This seems like a plausible way of distinguishing them from freeform (systemless) RPGs. I guess the reason the term isn't popular is because back in the dawn of RPGs, freeforms weren't seen as a big cultural phenomenon.

If this tangent goes on any longer it needs it's own thread.

The reason that the term isn't popular is because in the English speaking world "computer" no-longer means "that which computes" but means nearly exclusively "electronic micro-computer". I'm having trouble understanding why you are still disputing this. Most people (at least those born after the 60s) aren't even aware that mechanical computers ever existed, that an abacus is a computer, and that "Computer" used to be a job title. I always had this issue with explaining the billet to Marines, "I'm a Computer? What does that mean?"; to them a "computer" is that "thing that sits in their room that they play games and surf the internet on".

If we called P&P RPGs, "Computer Role-Playing Games" it would be meaningless except in a pedantically archaic usage. If you call non-electronic transmissions "computerized" it is only true in a pedantically archaic way.

If anybody really wants to continue this, I suggest we take it General Chatter.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If this tangent goes on any longer it needs it's own thread.

The reason that the term isn't popular is because in the English speaking world "computer" no-longer means "that which computes" but means nearly exclusively "electronic micro-computer". I'm having trouble understanding why you are still disputing this. Most people (at least those born after the 60s) aren't even aware that mechanical computers ever existed, that an abacus is a computer, and that "Computer" used to be a job title. I always had this issue with explaining the billet to Marines, "I'm a Computer? What does that mean?"; to them a "computer" is that "thing that sits in their room that they play games and surf the internet on".

If we called P&P RPGs, "Computer Role-Playing Games" it would be meaningless except in a pedantically archaic usage. If you call non-electronic transmissions "computerized" it is only true in a pedantically archaic way.

If anybody really wants to continue this, I suggest we take it General Chatter.

*shrug*

Let's get back to crunching my reality-check. :)

[Opellulo]

Abouth shifts and cluchtes: automatic shift is used because it's simple to handle for a driver (but it's more costly and complicated for a car-maker to install). It's not the most performant because the added hydraulics and gears sucks away power and limit the rpm choice (a critical point in car races). The most performant alternative is the sequential shift (usually used in motobikes or race cars). A newer option it's the hydraulic sequential shift (it gots many technical names like the Ferrari's "Cambiocorsa") which is basically a sequential shift without clutch, because it's handled by a dedicated computer system; usually the gear selector is installed on the driving wheel but not always. Some recently made cars (even small one like the last generation Toyota Yaris/Vits) can have a dual selector shift that can work as an hydraulic sequential or a full automatic, the only disvantage is that they charge a lot to install one.

About driving licence: as far i know in Italy you cannot obtain a driving licence on an automatic car, practice and exam must be done with a manual shift car. Please note also that here the automatic shift has the reputation as "device for disabled", but only because the male population got the national disvantage Overconfident (only while driving) and/or Delusion (thinks he's the next Valentino Rossi and/or Michael Shumacher). We got many wonderful roads in very bad conditions... And we speed (a lot) on them; no surprise our body count for road accidents is the highest in the European Union.

About default level: i think that driving (automobile) and driving (scooter) must be considered as Per/easy skills and many people still stick at default level for the rest of their life.

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Oh yes, there is a huge difference between a Driving skill of 8 to 11 and the default level!

I learned that in another thread (thanks to Icelander). Basic Set, Task Difficulty Modifiers, page 346: “These modifiers assume a trained character. To get an idea of how tough a task would be for working at default, add the default penalty to the the difficulty modifier.”

Thus, as long as we are in the utterly trivial task situation, no problem. No roll is required and, so, there is no difference between an expert driver or a beginner.

But as soon as the situation becomes potentially dangerous (nothing incredible: the characters are just behind a reckless driver who suddenly brakes, for instance), then a control roll is required.

And then, the rules become very harsh for the beginner! The TDM is reduced by the default penalty of -5!

...
[*]For a beginner (Default skill of 5) : 5 + 4 – 5 = Effective skill of 4! Argl! And if the roll is above 8 (4 + the SR of the car), it is a major problem. Blam, accident![/LIST]As everyone can see it, there is a huge difference!

I think you are misinterpreting this passage completely. It's not an additional rule saying "Unless something is so easy no roll is required, penalties for defaults are doubled." It's just highlighting how much harder things are when you're using a default, saying "Look how much more difficult things get when you don't have any training."

This is clearly shown in the paragraph following the one you quoted. "Example: Someone who never learned to drive is using Driving at its DX-5 default. For him, an everyday commute -- "Easy" (+4 or +5) for a trained driver -- would be "Average" (DX) or even "Unfavorable" (DX-1), and almost certainly a stressful experience."

So your beginner with a DX of 10 and a TDM of 4 would be rolling at 9, not 4.

[Moebius]

Would you consider a character who cannot drive a manual transmission to have a disadvantage or a flaw (TL8)? Or is the ability to drive manual an advantage above the norm?

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Moebius

Would you consider a character who cannot drive a manual transmission to have a disadvantage or a flaw (TL8)? Or is the ability to drive manual an advantage above the norm?

I would say that for people who came of driving age in the past 20 years or so, knowing how to drive with a manual transmission would be, basically, a perk.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Finally, some aspects of driving not only shouldn't have a default, but should also be decoupled from the skill entirely. I'm talking about Rules Lore. Having tried to pass a rules lore test, I can say that knowing the rules relates to being able to drive (DX-wise) about as much as knowing a language relates to being able to use calligraphy (again, DX-wise). I.e. not linked at all: one is the skill of how to make movements, while the other is a purely theoretical knowledge of what movements are allowed under what circumstances.

I'm a big believer that you really need both to get to your destination.

Originally Posted by Meobius

Would you consider a character who cannot drive a manual transmission to have a disadvantage or a flaw (TL8)? Or is the ability to drive manual an advantage above the norm?

Familiarity. I learned to drive on a manual. I haven't really used it much since, but I could still do it if I had to.

[sjard]

I can easily see driving as a default skill. I'm nearing the end of drivers ed for the first time. To me this does not come close to enough time to be a point in study.

The in car instruction takes 12 hours*. Half of that is simply observation of another student being instructed. The other six hours is broken into five lessons and a general review.

Hour 1: Smooth acceleration and braking.

Hour 2: Learning to correctly** turn left and right, along with left and right merging/lane changes.

Hour 3: Parallel parking

Hour 4: 2 and 3 point turns.

Hour 5: U-turns.

Hour 6: General review and going over the driving test course (for adults, under 18 you take the driving test).

The classroom portion consists of 18 hours (50 minute hours) of lectures, book study, and videos. One of those hours will be the written test.

* Admittedly, if you are under 18 here you are also required to have 40 hours of practice (10 of which must be at night) with a parent or guardian. If you are over 18 you are not required to have any more than the 12 hours.

** In other words, the way the instructors want you to do it, inside mirror, side mirror, over the shoulder to the blind spot, etc.