06-23-2013, 04:18 PM | #1 | ||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Another batch of questions about realistic damage
This was planned originally as a private message for DouglasCole in an attempt to further satisfy my curiosity about realistic damage. While I was typing all the little things that interest me this became quite long. So now we have a new thread. Also I think more people read this and show their point of view I have more material to work with.
#1:A realistic scale has thrust as ST/20, and swing as ST/10. So it is ST 10 thrust 1d-3 (1d3, 1d/2), swing 1d? #2: What approach should be used for thrown weapons (spears, javelins, axes)? RESCALING MELEE WEAPONS or pyramid article for realistic rescaling of bows? I think it should be rescaling melee weapons method but I’m not 100% sure. #3: Low Tech Armor and gunpowder rifles (of doom and utter despair) To me low-tech rifles seem extremely powerful. It could be that way from long exposure to brainwashing “rules how things work” our media is doing altering my perception drastically. Thickest manufactured piece of plate armor in Low Tech is DR 14. I will use DR 10 and DR 14 for examples. Quote:
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#4 Realistic damage idea While reading Basic Damage too High? and Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage threads I came with an idea. I started with using DouglasCole’s approach. Quote:
Battle between two ST 20 opponents. Each basic swing damage roll does between 2-12 points of damage. Likewise we see that minimum damage is 10% and maximum 60%. Bigger (and/or stronger) creatures have higher strength and with that bigger damage output. To represent this they use more dices. This creates a bell curve „problem“. While minimum and maximum damage does not increase or decrease probability suffers. Quote:
I came to an idea instead of using multiple dices to use multiplication by (ST/10). Quote:
Using ST 10 as a base we come to solution that ST 20 is 2 times as strong (2.0) With that ST 15 person is 1.5 times as strong as ST 10 person. ST 10 swing 1d avg. 3.5 minimum 1, maximum 6 ST 20 swing 2d avg. 7 minimum 2, maximum 12 Problem is: How to solve ST 15 swing damage? Now using Cole's table If we use 1.5 we come to avg. damage of 5.25. Quote:
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No satisfactory solution. Actually it is no wonder. If guys with academic degree in physics, who have bigger understanding, have problems solving this it is far-fetched to think I would find a good solution. |
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06-23-2013, 04:50 PM | #2 | |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
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If you still think bullet damage is too high, you can use the Body Hits optional rule from HT, capping piercing injury to the torso at HP. High-damage bullet hits will still be deadly, but it'll be because of bleeding, not the initial injury. Last edited by vierasmarius; 06-23-2013 at 04:54 PM. |
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06-23-2013, 05:21 PM | #3 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
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I did write up a few options for the penetration vs. armor questions in the first Alternate GURPS Pyramid, called "Armor Revisited." It contains the "Armor as Dice" option as well as a few others. I also started a few comment threads on my blog, including http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...ry-part-1.html http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...ry-part-2.html http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...dissected.html
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06-24-2013, 01:13 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
I'm not a PHD on Physics, but I play one on TV. Actually, I'll be an engineering in a couple of years, have a very good relationship with math and physics, and I've always been known as the Science/Math/Nerd/Smart guy.
I've made my own system for damage, kinda of based on douglas cole system. The problem is that it's all on portuguese. But, the basic is: NO MORE SW/THR DAMAGE There's no Sw/Thr, every weapon instead has a multiplier, multiply it by ST/10 and done, it's your damage in dice, frex, a mace got damage *1.8, so someone with ST11 does 1.98d of damage, rounded to 2d. Instead of cutting doing *1.5, impaling *2 etc... EVERY DAMAGE TYPE IS *1. Ok, what about penetration? It is simple, remember pi damage? with those plus and minuses? Yeah, like that, except that it follow the size/range table, so, you could get "+++" for triple damage, and "-" is *0.7, not *0.5, for 0.5 you have "--". You could even have "++++++" for a *10 multiplier(If such a weapon exists), interestingly, this makes most AD useless. Example: A broadsword cut is very damaging, but it's penetrating ability is low, while with a thrust you have some hope, so, the stats for it are: *1 cut ++ Or *1.5 imp(It is a thrusting broadsword, not the crushing silliness) Someone with ST13 and a sword could do 1d+1 cut ++ damage, or 2d imp. Now let's see what happens against 4 enemies, one with DR0, one with DR2, DR4 and DR6: *Against someone of DR0, the cutting damage averages on 9, the impaling averages on 7, so, against someone with no armor, you should swing. *Against someone of DR2, the cutting damage averages on 5, the impaling averages on 5, so, against someone with DR2, it evens out. *Against someone of DR4 the thing changes, the average damage of a cut is 2, the average of impaling is 3.16, impaling seems like a better option. *Against someone of DR6 cutting averages on 0.333, while imp averages on 1.555, impaling seems like the only option. For the most common weapons, the damages are: Broadsword: *1 Cut ++ or *1.5 Imp Axe: *1.5 Cut + Spear: *1.5 Imp Spear(2 hands) *2 Imp Bow: *1 Imp or *0.7 Imp++(For hunting arrows) Most polearms: *2 Imp(for a thrust), or, for swings: *2 cut+, *2.5 cr, *3 imp. Exception: Naginatas/Bardiches are made for slicing, not hacking, their damage is *1.6 cut++ If you want, I can translate all of it. Last edited by gilbertocarlos; 06-24-2013 at 01:17 AM. |
06-24-2013, 07:47 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
I'm pretty sure a full-scale musket doing utterly terrible things to what it hits is working as designed. Remember what a musket is. It's a 21 pound, .80 caliber personal cannon. Getting shot by that thing is a very poor life choice and likely to be terminal if it doesn't hit somewhere resulting in only minor damage, like blowing your arm off.
Most infantry 'muskets' are not muskets. They're calvers or fusils. (Or earlier, arquebuses.) I would note that in addition to max damage being largely irrelevant (the chance of rolling 24 on 4d is .08%), wounding from piercing is capped if you use the Body Hits rule in High Tech.
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06-24-2013, 08:40 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
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Old guns used big projectiles for a few reasons. They evolved from cannon and were being compared with sling stones and crossbow bolts, so it's not like people were thinking about how dangerous very small projectiles might be (at the time anyways). It's one of those "aha" ideas that's simple in hindsight but represents a big shift in thought. Putting aside cognitive blocks from cultural factors, TL4 and early TL5 metalworking skills would have been sorely taxed by the challenge of making small diameter barrels. I'm sure it's humanly possible, but it would be expensive; alternately, it would be prone to failure, which is a bad thing to combine with black powder's inherent user-unfriendlyness. Nothing like accidentally overcharging a weapon to really test how good those barrel welds are :P
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06-24-2013, 09:18 AM | #7 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
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Even the ordinary infantry muskets tend to approximately 3d, pi+ or pi++. Which is plenty horrible on soft targets...actually, pretty much at the limit of stopping power by Body Hits even if you houserule wound channel to factor in to the damage cap. But light enough that a feasible breastplate can stop them. Quote:
I don't know whether the smaller modern cartridges, like 5.56mm, would be effective with black powder. I suspect you'd have trouble getting the velocity they need to work. They also might not be so good with spherical shot...round shot should suffer more from air resistance, but less so at larger sizes.
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06-24-2013, 10:20 AM | #8 |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cumberland, ME
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
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06-24-2013, 10:48 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
You won't get anything like the velocity you can get from smokeless powder, and muzzle fouling would probably be a major issue; black powder leaves a whole lot of crud behind after it detonates.
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06-24-2013, 11:22 AM | #10 |
☣
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: Another batch of questions about realistic damage
Not all that much. Even to the end of TL5, many armies were still using rifles of around .58 caliber. Right at the end, .45 caliber became common, and .30 caliber pretty much marks the beginning of TL6.
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