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Old 09-14-2021, 02:17 PM   #11
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

As has been noted, if you're playing Legacy TFT (RAW), you're really not going to see many (if any) characters above 40 points. It simply becomes too expensive in terms of XP.
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:06 PM   #12
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
I guess my question is really just how do you roll (handle) for a high level stat?
The same as for lower stats: 3d6. And yes, in the absence of negative modifiers, they will succeed most of the time.

Quote:
A strength of 20. How would I hold someone in a cage unless it is specially made? But in a common jail in a common town. He could break out pretty easily.
You are not required to even allow a roll for things like breaking out of a jail with a reinforced, locked door or steel bars.


Quote:
Starting the best a warrior can do it
St. 16 Dex 8 IQ 8

A thief would be
ST 8 DEX 16 IQ 8
I would not call those "best" builds, but min-maxed. Perfectly acceptable, but perhaps not practical.

Quote:
I guess off the top of my head...each city or adventure will just get harder and harder like if I have a 42 point character they will only face 40-50 point encounters?
High-stat characters can be challenged by low-stat ones in TFT. Someone with a low IQ is going to have to fight their way through illusions and is an easy target for Control Person spells, while someone with low ST is going to have to worry about getting wounded by a dagger, and someone with a low DX is going to find it very challenging to not fall off a slippery ledge or dodge a poisoned dart trap.
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:30 PM   #13
Peter von Kleinsmid
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
I guess my question is really just how do you roll (handle) for a high level stat?
I play it straight, and would recommend doing the same.


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Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
for shooting a bow...a 20 Dex would never miss on a simple thing but of cource harder things it will. But most of the time. they will roll 16-18 is a miss as opposed to a 12 Dex which has a much bigger gap To Hit.
Yes, and that's what a DX 20 archer is supposed to do, twice per turn, even. DX 20 with a bow is a world-class archer, and is generally quite fun for the player. Let them hit things frequently. The rules already cover this well. This is not a problem.


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Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
I was just using the example so that I can understand how to handle someone with a high stat. A strength of 20. How would I hold someone in a cage unless it is specially made? But in a common jail in a common town. He could break out pretty easily.
Maybe, if the construction of the jail isn't particularly strong, or maybe not. ST 20 is a very strong human, but even small village jails may be built well enough to withstand a strong person, or even a couple of strong people teaming up. Start with the rules for Doors in In The Labyrinth on page 70. The 5-die roll to run against a door and knock it open is about an ordinary door that was not built for that kind of abuse.

Even if a character does get thrown in a jail and manages to get out by any means, that's an interesting situation that can lead to fun and interesting play! As a GM, I would provide only the amount of resistance that I thought (or determined by random rolls) was present. Player characters doing unexpected and unruly things that make use of their abilities, and the situations they lead to, is what the game is about. Ok, they broke down the door... what happens next? All sorts of interesting things could happen!

IF they get caught again, and what you determine should happen is the guards would put them in a more secure cell, well, there will certainly be more secure cells somewhere. They might have the village blacksmith provide some heavy chains, or just use a lot of rope to very securely tie the prisoner up, or have a posse of villagers guard the prisoner as they march him to the nearest fort or town with a better jail. But there will be proper cell doors that would need many more dice to break down, and that have round-the clock guards with weapons who will be a problem for unarmed prisoners trying to escape.


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Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
What I am looking for is suggestions for those that have very high Stats could be just STR. DEX, or IQ....I know I am putting the Cart before the horse.
Let them be strong, agile, and smart, and do things well. The rules of TFT already allow for plenty of ways for such characters to find life interesting and challenging, if the GM just applies natural consequences. They may be quite heroic and successful, but there are always more dangerous challenges to undertake.


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Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
But even a few levels could really tip the scales on the game. I know that Dex of 8 you will not hit very often or Strength 8 you will not do a ton of damage. I am just looking for suggestions maybe 6 months or a year end. right now I am confident on handling a 32 point character it is when they get into 42 and above where it can get tricky
You won't get even to 40 points in a year of play unless you play frequently, and the PCs survive, AND you give them a LOT of experience. And if they do reach 36 or higher, they will be quite capable, but probably the players will be enjoying having achieved that level of ability.

More capable PCs will often be able to defeat opponents that would have been challenging before. But the risk won't entirely go away. Surviving will still depend on effective play, avoiding extremely dangerous situations, and good fortune. And players tend to naturally take on more dangerous and difficult situations, when their characters are more capable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
I guess off the top of my head...each city or adventure will just get harder and harder like if I have a 42 point character they will only face 40-50 point encounters?
I would say that the GM generally should not just make the whole world become more powerful to match they PCs' point levels. The PCs own choices and actions however may tend to lead to more challenging situations. Players will tend to choose more dangerous things to take on.

Of course, a visibly strong party will tend not to get attacked by opponents that realize they're weaker, and may attract the interest of stronger and more capable foes, especially if the PCs are known to have a lot of gold or magic items. And NPCs who realize the PCs are very powerful may tend to flee and go warn others, which can tend to naturally result in a powerful party ending up facing larger and/or more capable groups of foes.

PCs who do notable things may tend to get noticed and develop reputations and enemies that lead to more challenging opportunities, challenges and foes. Powerful people and organizations may want to employ a strong PC group, and assign them some difficult missions. Others may have known the people the PCs have defeated, and want revenge. Or they may just want to relieve the PCs of their loot and magic items, or to strike first so they don't end up the PCs' next victims.
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:39 PM   #14
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmace View Post
I guess my question is really just how do you roll (handle) for a high level stat?

for shooting a bow...a 20 Dex would never miss on a simple thing but of cource harder things it will. But most of the time. they will roll 16-18 is a miss as opposed to a 12 Dex which has a much bigger gap To Hit.
So let's start with your first use-case...

Assuming the character survives long enough to achieve it (which I have my doubts about), then yes, an adjDX 20 archer should hit almost every time he shoots at your low-to-average tier targets especially within a few megahexes. These opponents probably wear none-to-moderate armor and will drop like flies before the exceptional skill of your bowman. Smarter foes will choose to DODGE requiring a 4d roll to hit, making it a bit harder on your archer, but to level the playing field even more, the shooter should be faced by strong opponents in head-to-toe heavy armor and shields. The archer will be forced to make 'aimed shots', preferably at the head, for -6 DX per shot in order to deal any meaningful damage.

And that's just using RAW and no magic (REVERSE MISSILES would be especially deadly to your archer). If you open the door to a few logical house-rules like a master martial artist whose Evade ability allows them to DODGE just as well as they can DEFEND (5 or 6 dice to hit) or shields that provide cover rather than armor, you can create even more interesting and challenging encounters for all levels of play.
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Old 09-15-2021, 08:50 AM   #15
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

I have an online scenario showing how impossible it is for a wizard who starts at IQ 17 to survive, even with the +3 to hit of the higher level staff spells here:

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/necropus/
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Old 09-15-2021, 10:20 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

Most of the examples raised aren't even very relevant to actual play. An archer with adj.DX 20 suffers range penalties, armor penalties, and all the rest of it, and then there are tight caps on the damage they can dole out. This is a highly competent archer, not a game breaker. The same and more goes for extreme ST and IQ characters. If you take these characters out of the 'white room' arguments and into even a simple real-play situation, you will quickly find they all have limitations and can be foiled by some other specific build. E.g., your high DX archer presumably has some limitation on ST and is perhaps using a horse bow doing only 1D damage. That's fine against some foes, but a combatant in fine plate will ignore your attacks completely, walk up and stick a spear in you.
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Old 02-21-2022, 12:33 PM   #17
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

I think that prior posts have covered how to deal with high stat characters fairly well. You have to learn how to scale your encounters.

My experience with high stat characters is from being GM in the original TFT. We played alot from 1980 through to the mid-90s. Yes, we had several high stat characters and a very small number of very high stat characters. The very high stat characters were pulled out of normal play. They were the rulers/leaders that no one ever saw but knew they were still around in some way. We would pull them out for special excursions just for them and have super hero fun.

By the mid-90's our play had moved toward more large scale and militaristic situations up to and including a castle siege.This was because each of us had generated many characters and actually played them. During such play, there were ways to keep the high stat (elite leader) characters occupied and challenged while well over 120 troops (both sides) fought it out. If the lower ranking characters could see what was happening with their leaders, that would affect morale and the ability of their leaders to keep them from routing or give them more confidence to continue fighting. Tactics and Strategist talents became very useful for these leaders.

At the end, survivors got their rewards of experience points and loot per the rules of their command structure. The rulers that sent them on the mission were guaranteed Some progressed up the ranks and became Sergeants of new recruits.

One player was into Centaurs and had 4 squads of 10. Each 10 had a Sergeant and a Lieutenant. There was a Major over two squads and a Colonel/General over all of them. All had increasing stats, abilities, and equipment. It was great for setting up adventures/battle and scaling them appropriately. If he thought that his lowest ranking group needed some more play time, I would set up a mission for them. The same for his other squads or even all of them.

I suppose that scaling adventures and encounters is the same in the Legacy TFT. However, I'm learning quickly that the old player characters are simply incompatible with the new rules. This incompatibility is small for beginning characters and increased as the attribute total increases.

As I strive to learn the new ITL rules, I am always looking back to the original issue to understand the differences. I may conclude that I will go strictly old school. I haven't made up my mind yet. I really don't like the amount of NERFing that occurred for non-human races. This is an obvious result of D&D infiltration. Those guys always hated TFT for allowing non-human race PCs. In fact, back in the day, the devout D&D players always slammed TFT via lies. The main one was that TFT was just a basic hack and maul game with no substance. I heard it from many of them and none would listen otherwise. D&D was their religion and TFT's existence violated that.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 02-21-2022 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 02-22-2022, 03:04 AM   #18
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
By the mid-90's our play had moved toward more large scale and militaristic situations up to and including a castle siege.This was because each of us had generated many characters and actually played them. During such play, there were ways to keep the high stat (elite leader) characters occupied and challenged while well over 120 troops (both sides) fought it out.
Thanks Bill, that was one great read. Much of what you recount mirrors how and what my own group was doing at the very same years, and not many miles away.

I only wish I could have seen that castle siege play out, or better yet had some characters in that fight! We once did the siege of an entire walled city, but using the rules from a different (larger scale) wargame, with some of out best player characters (represented by little counters) stacked one each with different combat units they were leading. No actual melee though. I believe on the scale you used it would have been a lot more interesting.
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Old 02-22-2022, 09:02 AM   #19
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Dealing with High Stat players

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
Thanks Bill, that was one great read. Much of what you recount mirrors how and what my own group was doing at the very same years, and not many miles away.

I only wish I could have seen that castle siege play out, or better yet had some characters in that fight! We once did the siege of an entire walled city, but using the rules from a different (larger scale) wargame, with some of out best player characters (represented by little counters) stacked one each with different combat units they were leading. No actual melee though. I believe on the scale you used it would have been a lot more interesting.
Well...I believe that it was the pinnacle of my GM abilities and it certainly taxed them to the max. I freely admit that I was not that great a creating a world and a story that went with it. I was carrying on from what a deceased friend originally created and stole ideas from other game system info. I was good at scaling the encounters and battles appropriately for the PCs present.

Since TFT had been out of print for a decade, we were using stuff from other game systems. The most compatible was GURPS (which was TFT 2.0 until ITL Legacy came along). I used the castle layout from a GURPS module. It was a huge hexmap. I had to accommodate a large number of Centaurs, catapults, arbalests, and some flying creatures. Lots of magic, magical enhancements, and regular play with beginning or close to it) was present. Most troops had a reasonable amount of training in the arena so that they could, at least, prove themselves as a fighting group.

My friend that was into Centaurs started with one character that he liked to play and then he started a couple more and played them as a group with other characters present. Then he said something about starting a squad of beginning centaurs. That's when I suggested that he place one of his secondary characters as their SGT and he agreed. As the group progressed, they would break off into their own squads with recruits. Access to decent weapons, armor, and wine were good recruiting tactics for his Centaurs. Centaurs were like light tanks racing across the board in open field combat. They were a challenge for a GM to keep challenged.
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