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Old 02-16-2010, 08:27 PM   #31
Quaff_fu
 
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by Blu View Post
I really see your point though about the official rulings....that's why I'd love another place to just chit chat and such, no rulings at all.
Try here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/..._guild_flames/

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Old 02-17-2010, 07:00 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
If you feel that the card is too strong, rather than argue about it and then throw around specious logic that would get you an F in a logic class or on any attempt to write a geometric proof,
I thought I was coming at this from a position of a perception of the card, not a logical design. As I said somewhere along the line, it's really no worse than some other situational one-use treasures that tip a whole combat.

Munchkin is very much about chance. And I don't just mean distributions of die rolls, I mean also the chance you can win at all. If a game is badly imbalanced, will people want to play? (More on that in a moment, I want to address....)

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
just tear up the cards and don't use them in your game.
You do realize customers paid money for the card.

I don't want this to come off as snarky or an idle threat - I love Munchkin and have played since the original card game first came out with plenty of expansions in between - but if this is going to be *so* imbalanced that other people don't want to play, I have to consider where my gaming money goes.


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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
... Space Knight wants to house rule it to better balance it (balance according to his opinion an taste), and I want to keep six copies in my game so everyone can start with one. I don't think RoF is too powerful at all if everyone starts with one - rather it leads to some very interesting dynamics. I'd love to discuss those interactions in another thread sometime. :)
FWIW, 6 copies is balanced, in the sense of being equal.
Maybe instead of tearing them up, since they're not shuffled, can I make photocopies?
That, of course, then hurts SJG's profits, and I do like to support gaming companies, and I think that as a whole, Munchkin is good to support. (Especially with the creative way of putting out a product to expand multiple games at once.)


The problem is finding Munchkin Quest players.
"Wait, one person gets to start with WHAT?!" is an added problem.
When I do find players, if one sits down with their copy of Reversal, I don't want to tell that one to tear up their card, or get into a whole argument about fairness for the rest of the table. (so maybe this goes beyond a "house" rule and it is really about the official rule getting more balanced.)

That's where I'm coming from. I play with 2 different large gaming clubs (about 20 people each) and issues like balance really affect finding people to join in a game. MQ has enough trouble overcoming some peoples' perceptions of Munchkin cards.

Let me take that last though to a different thread. Tangent goes this way -->

Last edited by Spaceknight; 02-17-2010 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:55 AM   #33
crimhead
 
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by Blu View Post
I didn't really mean that I wanted to argue against an official ruling (which I don't think there is one in this thread). I wouldn't do that....I just like to chat and debate for fun, kind of like what is going on in this very thread. People are just talking.
Given the title of this thread, I can't see anybody looking for an official ruling. Rather it prompts discussion on such matters as:
  • How effective can this card be?
  • How reliably can it be used to maximum effectiveness?
  • How badly can it backfire?
  • How easy is it to counter?
  • Just how powerful is too powerful anyway?

Official answers don't apply here. These answers range anywhere form uncertain to subjective, and are not rules based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceknight View Post
FWIW, 6 copies is balanced, in the sense of being equal.
There are two senses in which this card could be too powerful. One sense in imbalanced between players (since some people might have one and others not), and the other sense is too powerful relative to other cards and game effects.

I think six copies solves both - obviously this makes it fair between players via symmetry, but also since one can counter another, having one per player reduces their effectiveness all around (not that I agree that was a problem in the first place).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceknight View Post
Maybe instead of tearing them up, since they're not shuffled, can I make photocopies?
That, of course, then hurts SJG's profits, and I do like to support gaming companies, and I think that as a whole, Munchkin is good to support. (Especially with the creative way of putting out a product to expand multiple games at once.)
Buying six copies will give you six KoMs , just in case you need further incentive to support SJGs. I might get a seventh just to have a devoted KoM for the monsters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceknight View Post
When I do find players, if one sits down with their copy of Reversal, I don't want to tell that one to tear up their card, or get into a whole argument about fairness for the rest of the table. (so maybe this goes beyond a "house" rule and it is really about the official rule getting more balanced.)
Don't hold your breath for an errata. The collectible nature of Munchkin is here to stay. If you don't like it, you'll have to confine you games to players who agree not to include these items, or better yet, pack enough for everyone. That way, when somebody sits down with RoF you can say:
"Oh, were using the Kill-o-Meter expansion? Who wants to borrow one, I've got lots!"

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Originally Posted by worms919 View Post
I don't have this card yet, but honestly the die roles could probably screw you over more so with it than without it, so to me the card seems more silly than game breaking...
They sure can, and silly fun can ensue! But if your final level before the die ends in 2 or 3 your looking at a final result between 30 and 90. The question is how easy is it to make sure you have such a level when encountering a scary monster with lots of treasure?

Usually your fighting at level 2 or 3 early on anyway, but might not find a strong monster. In Quest you can often predict when you'll fight a big baddie, as the bigger monsters tend to hang around and you can willfully chase them. This allows to to cunningly select your weapons before battle to try to be at level 2, 3, 12, or 13. Then RoF is really strong - IF you can avoid interference. In standard Munckin, things are different...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu View Post
...in normal Munchkin you can use one shots at any time.
Yes, in normal Munchkin this helps curb the power of RoF. One shots are harder to use in Quest, though when I first joined this discussion I'd forgotten about scrolls, so I'll have to count those and reassess...

Standard Munchkin also has thieves that can steal this (making it dangerous to hold out for ideal conditions, or even to use it at all)*, and other cards more powerful than those in Quest (IMO), which reduce RoF's relative power level. It's harder to assess this for the card game I think, because there are so many various combinations of sets and expansions that may or may not be in play.

To me this is all very interesting academically, but in practice I solve any such problems by sharing. Sharing is nice. :)

*Edit - my bad, it looks like this card has a can't-be-stolen clause in regular Munchkin. I only play Quest nowadays, so I hadn't really given the card game version a good inspection.

Last edited by crimhead; 02-17-2010 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

You all can say that the title should indicate no need for rules interpretations, but I can't count the number of theoretical threads where someone made a mistake while quoting or interpreting or mis-remembering a rule. I believe I had to correct one such misconception here, already. This means I have to read every post in every thread because if there's one thing I know, it's that bad assumptions get propagated and somehow me not correcting a mistake is confirmation of my assent of that interpretation. All of a sudden, someone will infer that something I didn't correct was the right way to play and then I'm spending more time than necessary correcting that somewhere down the line.

So. the upshot of all this is: Please don't try to tell me how to do my job. I've actually got people for that, and I think they'd agree that I'm doing it the way I'm supposed to.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:28 AM   #35
crimhead
 
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
You all can say that the title should indicate no need for rules interpretations, but I can't count the number of theoretical threads where someone made a mistake while quoting or interpreting or mis-remembering a rule. I believe I had to correct one such misconception here, already. This means I have to read every post in every thread because if there's one thing I know, it's that bad assumptions get propagated and somehow me not correcting a mistake is confirmation of my assent of that interpretation. All of a sudden, someone will infer that something I didn't correct was the right way to play and then I'm spending more time than necessary correcting that somewhere down the line.

So. the upshot of all this is: Please don't try to tell me how to do my job. I've actually got people for that, and I think they'd agree that I'm doing it the way I'm supposed to.
I would never mean to tell you how to do your job. And I appreciate that you caught my rules error here, though I'd thought it was just a lucky catch. I didn't realise you actually comb through every thread looking for such things - but I think it's stellar that you do. I mean that. I've been to many board game forums, and few mods are that meticulous. I tip my hat :)

I think this is my eighteenth post since I joined in 2005, so given my lack of experience here I hope you'll forgive my underestimating of your diligence.

Also I'm sorry if I rub you the wrong way. I honestly try to be polite, respectful, and to contribute positively to the gaming community. The last think I want is to cause anyones head to ache or blood to boil. Life is too short for making enemies online over board games.

Last edited by crimhead; 02-17-2010 at 11:34 AM.
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