Balancing High Size Modifier

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I came up with (but am still working on) a system for making Mass into a Trait rather than Feature, and adapting that to handle SM might be a good idea. Ideally, once I've got that one worked out, it and SM should be combined. I should note the ST discount isn't factored in below - ST discount was some sort of hack to try and make high SM worthwhile as far as I can tell and should be tossed to the side like so much rubbish.

I don't like it either. I've tried to persuade myself that it represents the limitation greater size puts upon the ability to exercise the strength somewhat like no fine manipulators (you can't lift something if your hand can't reach it after all) but it doesn't feel right. HP has no business being limited, the limitation should apply to other abilities if it should apply to ST and it seems like the direct disadvantages of being large are vaguely balanced with the direct disadvantages of being small.

I could quibble with parts of the rest of your analysis (I think I might put increased dose required for poison at 1 point for example) but it seems broadly reasonable. Thanks.

[Tomsdad]

While I agree that SM has issues in general there are a couple of other benefits that SM+1 gives, that haven't been mentioned yet

C attacks can now be done at reach 1

and

You get benefits to grappling due to your size (but can't remember off the top of my head how that has translated into Technical Grappling).

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

While I agree that SM has issues in general there are a couple of other benefits that SM+1 gives, that haven't been mentioned yet

C attacks can now be done at reach 1

Which is worse than any other positive SM's reach bonus. Which is a shame when SM+1 is surely the most common >0 SM for PCs.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

While I agree that SM has issues in general there are a couple of other benefits that SM+1 gives, that haven't been mentioned yet

C attacks can now be done at reach 1

and

You get benefits to grappling due to your size (but can't remember off the top of my head how that has translated into Technical Grappling).

+1 to effective skill and 15% bonus to Trained ST for each relative +1 difference in SM. The real big bonuses come from being heavier.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Which is worse than any other positive SM's reach bonus. Which is a shame when SM+1 is surely the most common >0 SM for PCs.

Oh that's certainly true, it's just there is advantage there over SM 0.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

+1 to effective skill and 15% bonus to Trained ST for each relative +1 difference in SM. The real big bonuses come from being heavier.

Aha cheers, not too shabby, and of course you can now grapple at reach 1. At least that's how I interpret the C increasing to 1 on the size mods on pg 402, i.e it's on attacks with reach 'C' not just weapons with reach 'C'.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

C attacks can now be done at reach 1

I tossed this in with the [+5] for "Reach, Evasion, Trampling, etc," based on the fact you can get the same benefits in a switchable form with Stretching for [6].

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You get benefits to grappling due to your size (but can't remember off the top of my head how that has translated into Technical Grappling).

I tossed these in with the [+10] of the "easy to see/hit" modifiers. Now, the +15% Trained ST from Technical Grappling may be more of a factor than I'm probably giving it credit for. Arguably, that's worth something like [2] (racial +4.5 to skill for [9], only for determining Trained ST at -80%), which is probably small enough we could disregard it if so inclined (that [+10] has a good deal of wiggle room, honestly).

[Tomsdad]

Ultimately what you going to do with your SM+1 character is what really makes this an advantage or not.

What's a distinct disadvantage in a paratrooper d-day campaign, is probably going to be a clear advantage in a Sword and sorcery epic with lots of grappling with grey apes

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by Sindri

I am absolutely prepared to agree that high SM is a good choice for biters but I do play the occasional character who isn't trying to rip other peoples' arms of with their teeth.

: )

What kind of game are you trying to play? Don't you know this system is called Gnawing Usually Results in Perfect Success?

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

What's a distinct disadvantage in a paratrooper d-day campaign, is probably going to be a clear advantage in a Sword and sorcery epic with lots of grappling with grey apes

Except the sword and sorcery character gets the worst disadvantage: double clothing and armor weight.

I agree that the value of the disadvantage varies wildly between games. In a horror game set in the 1920s, it's little more than flavor ("The detective you're looking for is the tallest man I ever seen!"). But in a low-tech game where characters are constantly in combat and need to wear armor? It's a huge disadvantage. I've been offering SM+1 as a -20 disad in my fantasy game and still no one has taken it.

And I hate trying to balance through workarounds like adjusting the price of ST. Not all large characters are going to have a high ST. Is the weak giant disadvantaged less than the strong one? I don't think so.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by PTTG

What kind of game are you trying to play? Don't you know this system is called Gnawing Usually Results in Perfect Success?

Clearly I've failed us all tremendously. I apologize to my GMs, to my players, to the GURPS authors and to the Steve Jackson forums. I'm not sure if I can make up for this profound shame, but I do resolve to make my best effort.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Except the sword and sorcery character gets the worst disadvantage: double clothing and armor weight.

Though the paratrooper still has a bad deal here. With larger numbers of more damaging attacks being easier to hit isn't fun.