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Old 04-07-2019, 01:41 AM   #1
FeiLin
 
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Default Shotgun and range

I'm a bit confused about shotgun. I don't have any experience from real life, but the rules on B409 seem kind of counterintuitive to me.

Being close to the target multiplies the damage and DR by the number of projectiles, whereas being farther away multiplies the shots instead. Afaik shotguns use rapid fire with Rcl 1 (at least those in the weapons tables), and the effective RoF (multiplied or not, depending on range). The example (B409) says the shotgun is RoF 3x9, so effective RoF 27/3 at medium/short* range. The target DR is 3/12, and damage is 1d+1/4d+4 at long/short range.

Intuitively multiplying damage and DR is worse than the prospect of higher skill since each extra margin of success means an extra hit (Rcl 1). Assuming a skill of 12, I calculate 12.5 HP of damage at long range, and about 17 HP for short range. But bumping the DR up to 4 makes long range more effective at 7.5 vs ~7.3 HP. Continuing upping DR only makes it worse at short range, even though higher skill compensates for one or two more points. Did I miss something, or is a shotgun better at longer range irl as well because the shots spreading out is better? Increasingly better against heavier armor, that is.

Also, a sidenote: if I have skill 17+, I still miss at 17-18, but do I get rapid fire multipliers if I roll anything else for my actual skill value or is that also capped at 16? I would guess it's not capped, since I couldn't find it explicit either way.



* Medium as in less than 1/2D, short as in less than 10% of 1/2D
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Old 04-07-2019, 05:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

You're aware that with shotguns you don't add up the damage but compare each 1d+1 roll to the DR?
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:13 AM   #3
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

A few things here. First, as Thorkell* notes, each pellet from a shotgun treats DR separately, so if you roll all of them together, you need to multiply DR by number of hits.

Next up, while it’s not stated in Basic Set, shotguns within 10% of 1/2D do pi++, rather than pi.

To answer your last question, RoF adds to skill normally, even above 16, but a roll of 17-18 is always a miss, regardless of how high your skill gets. With ridiculous skill levels, this can mean you either miss outright or hit with every single shot, with nothing in between.

*Posting on phone, can’t really do the special character properly.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Next up, while it’s not stated in Basic Set, shotguns within 10% of 1/2D do pi++, rather than pi.
Where is this stat? High Tech?
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:45 AM   #5
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Where is this stat? High Tech?
Basic, page 409, under "Shotguns and Multiple Projectiles" has a damage multiplier for "extremely close range", but not the pi to pi++.

Tactical Shooting, p.6, under "Shot Shredder", has the alternative rules for change to pi++.

Last edited by DAT; 04-07-2019 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Checking additional references
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Old 04-07-2019, 11:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

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Originally Posted by DAT View Post
Tactical Shooting, p.6, under "Shot Shredder", has the alternative rules for change to pi++.
Ah, Tactical Shooting... not useful for my current Gunslinger Character as my GM doesn't have that book and is loathe to bring in new rules from sources he doesn't own.

But, now I know where it is... until I forget in a few hours...
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Ah, Tactical Shooting... not useful for my current Gunslinger Character as my GM doesn't have that book and is loathe to bring in new rules from sources he doesn't own.

But, now I know where it is... until I forget in a few hours...
Before it was made ultra-official in TS, there was this Krommpost.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Intuitively multiplying damage and DR is worse than the prospect of higher skill since each extra margin of success means an extra hit (Rcl 1). Assuming a skill of 12, I calculate 12.5 HP of damage at long range, and about 17 HP for short range. But bumping the DR up to 4 makes long range more effective at 7.5 vs ~7.3 HP. Continuing upping DR only makes it worse at short range, even though higher skill compensates for one or two more points. Did I miss something, or is a shotgun better at longer range irl as well because the shots spreading out is better? Increasingly better against heavier armor, that is.
The thing about armor is an error, probably for the reason Žorkell points out, but it's not wrong to say a shotgun is better at longer range. The point of a shot load is to make it easier to hit difficult targets, which is lost at very short range. The short-range blast, if you hit with it, is inferior to firing a slug. Or a rifle bullet, in most respects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Also, a sidenote: if I have skill 17+, I still miss at 17-18, but do I get rapid fire multipliers if I roll anything else for my actual skill value or is that also capped at 16? I would guess it's not capped, since I couldn't find it explicit either way.
...What are "rapid fire multipliers"? Rapid Fire does not in any way change that your attack fails and you miss on a 17+. But your modified skill can always be higher than 16, for considerations like calculating margin of success.
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Old 04-07-2019, 05:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Also, a sidenote: if I have skill 17+, I still miss at 17-18, but do I get rapid fire multipliers if I roll anything else for my actual skill value or is that also capped at 16? I would guess it's not capped, since I couldn't find it explicit either way.
If your effective skill is, say, 20, a roll of 17 is a failure, while a roll of 16 is a margin of success of 4. Does that help?
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Shotgun and range

Below 10% range you roll a single combined damage roll and multiply the target's DR as stated. But this means instead of separate 1d+1 attacks you could be rolling 4d+4. While at first glance this looks like the same damage, but the pi++ modifier helps, and against soft armor where every 5 points does one point of blunt trauma, the 4d+4 is a lot nastier than individual 1d+1 attacks. This means you'll probably do around 3 pts of damage to somebody wearing a kevlar vest even though you can't penetrate it, as long as you are within 'boomstick' range. Note pi++ only applies to penetrating damage so doesn't help with the blunt trauma.
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