Ghost-like character who can only affect certain marked people?

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

It's not an advantage to be intangible to most people at will?

Yes. That's what Insubstantiality and Invisibility are - Advantages. That's what they do BY THEMSELVES - they give an advantage for those that have them.

With the "Always On" limitation it turns into a "Disadvantageous Advantage". It is STILL an advantage - you can still walk over solids that would otherwise stop you, therefore accessing areas you would not be able to, and you can still evade any prying eyes, at the cost of not being able to interact with the physical world.

There's no need to add to this.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

1.) Ghost sees victim
2.) Ghost goes'th behind victim
3.) Ghost marks victim (nobody else sees it or can interact with it)
4.) Ghost chokes victim (ok the victim can struggle but what if it's smothering in bed?)
5.) Ghost kills victim
6.) Noone there to see it.


I mean technically it's a very uncommon amount of people who are marked.
But also technically it can be done often, in theory anyway.

How about a magical, sentient dagger or shortsword or something, it's the same as the ghost only it can stab people it marks and it has a great bloodlust.

Dagger flies into a group of people, marks the victim, stabs it behind the collarbone (major artery there), mark bleeds out rather quickly. Noone can grasp it other than the mark who's pretty much dead now.
Mark is pronounced dead, dagger can mark someone new, flies to the next victim.

Sure you only have one mark in this case, but you can do a whole lot of malice with it.

But yeah, I'm new at GURPS, I just read before that points are given for utility or something. Like, how useful something is.
Isn't this quite useful even if the OP only cited some comedic use for it?

Exactly, utility.

In that case it is NO LONGER a limitation on his "Always On". In fact, instead it would require to REMOVE this "Always On" limitation, and put Acessibility (Always On EXCEPT on market victims) -10%, meaning that the ghost can mark someone in their sleep, choke the victim and go to the next target, but cant pick up items, open doors etc.

If the ghost however has for example to introduce himself, then it is fit for the Accessibility ON the "Always On". And the number of Marked people can be dictated by the reductor.

Im saying this because someone above suggested that this Acessibility would sum with the -50% from Always On. It does not. It will REDUCE the value of "Always On", therefore INCREASING the value of the Advantage. This will be a "Limitation of a Limitation".

For example:
Insubstantiality - 100 CP
[ - Always On -50% ]
[ * Acessibility (except 100 marked people) -20%]
/Final Value of "Always On" Limitation - 10% of 50% = -40%/
Final Value of Advantage - 60 CP
And the amount of people that can be marked increases slightly the final cost, and Acessibility dictates how many people can be marked at most, so you can adjust that number with that.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Edit:
I think what I am getting at is 'resistance rolls' for this, or something.
If it's just a limitation and not a malediction etc, then well...I guess if it's a malediction and it's just a quick contest or something then rolling against it while hidden is just a nuisance roll anyway, but, you know?
A selective, willful ability to put on people? I mean sure it's been phrased now like it's the other way around and marked people are the exception but if the ghost doesn't mark anyone then everyone is unmarked and thus the ghost has complete insubstantiality.

A Ghost can have SEVERAL spiritual/psychic powers that affects the material world. That's why insubstantiality and invisibility are STILL advantages, despite them being "Always On".

If however the ghost have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of interacting AT ALL with the material world, if it cant be heard, nor seem (which would allow communication with signs) nor can it use ANY kind of powers nor there will ever be ANY medium capable of communicating with them in your game (not necessarily in the world; there may be mediums out there, but if there will NEVER be a single one showing in your game, they dont matter), well then, in that case Insubstantiality with Invisibility AND Mute (all combined togheter) turn into a DISADVANTAGE.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Yes. That's what Insubstantiality and Invisibility are - Advantages. That's what they do BY THEMSELVES - they give an advantage for those that have them.

With the "Always On" limitation it turns into a "Disadvantageous Advantage". It is STILL an advantage - you can still walk over solids that would otherwise stop you, therefore accessing areas you would not be able to, and you can still evade any prying eyes, at the cost of not being able to interact with the physical world.


Exactly, utility.

In that case it is NO LONGER a limitation on his "Always On". In fact, instead it would require to REMOVE this "Always On" limitation, and put Acessibility (Always On EXCEPT on market victims) -10%, meaning that the ghost can mark someone in their sleep, choke the victim and go to the next target, but cant pick up items, open doors etc.

If the ghost however has for example to introduce himself, then it is fit for the Accessibility ON the "Always On". And the number of Marked people can be dictated by the reductor.

Im saying this because someone above suggested that this Acessibility would sum with the -50% from Always On. It does not. It will REDUCE the value of "Always On", therefore INCREASING the value of the Advantage. This will be a "Limitation of a Limitation".

For example:
Insubstantiality - 100 CP
[ - Always On -50% ]
[ * Acessibility (except 100 marked people) -20%]
/Final Value of "Always On" Limitation - 10% of 50% = -40%/
Final Value of Advantage - 60 CP
And the amount of people that can be marked increases slightly the final cost, and Acessibility dictates how many people can be marked at most, so you can adjust that number with that.




A Ghost can have SEVERAL spiritual/psychic powers that affects the material world. That's why insubstantiality and invisibility are STILL advantages, despite them being "Always On".

If however the ghost have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of interacting AT ALL with the material world, if it cant be heard, nor seem (which would allow communication with signs) nor can it use ANY kind of powers nor there will ever be ANY medium capable of communicating with them in your game (not necessarily in the world; there may be mediums out there, but if there will NEVER be a single one showing in your game, they dont matter), well then, in that case Insubstantiality with Invisibility AND Mute (all combined togheter) turn into a DISADVANTAGE.

Limitations can have limitations?
Always on with an exception does not seem like always on to me.
If it's not always on then it's not always on, that's why I initially went with thinking about the ghost afflicting someone with a 'buff' to interact with it.
After all the ghost is still insubstantial to everyone who is not marked, it's always on.
The mark simply gets abilities to interact with the ghost.
The affliction/buff is an innate attack that has limited uses that recharge upon a characters death, and the ghost gets affects subtantial with the accessibility on a marked creature.

Or in other words:
Ghost is invisible with always on. (disad)
Ghost cannot speak at all. (disad)
Ghost is insubstantial with always on. (disad)
Ghost can affect substantial things with its mark and has to take the enhancement.
Ghost has the marking ability with a limited use/special recharge.

Ghost gets a homebrew advantage that allows it to interact with marked people as if the ghost were corporeal.
(After all it's not a one way street. Marked one can interact with this ghost, but that doesn't mean the ghost can, too, outside of abilities that affect substantial)

Super cheap, since it only affects relatively few creatures, and only recharges charges upon their death.

Marking:
Ghost hexes a creature with the mark, it adds a 0 point unusual background onto it (marked by this specific ghost) which is lost upon death, giving back one charge to the ghost.
Creature gains several advantages so the creature can interact with the ghost, and only the ghost, as well as see it.


This way the ghost remains invisible, silent and intangible to anyone mundane and unmarked.
And because being an intangible, mute and invisible being is basically a curse.
The homebrew advantage is the way out, and it's cheap since it only affects as many as it can affect.


Wouldn't this be an overall net benefit for the Ghost?
Keeping the downsides strict, without 'accessiblity' but creating a reasonably priced advantage for it, that is, well, an advantage, an ability.
"I can be free of my curse to a few chosen people, and I have control over who they are."

This package might be a net point positive, that way, really.
But, as I have mentioned it before, I'm still learning, myself.

P.S.:
I see it this way:
If GURPS takes the normal human as a standard, then this ghost is subpar with it's curse.
Can't talk, does not show up to anyone, doesn't even have a corporeal body.
It's cursed.

But, the GM makes a custom advantage for such wretched creatures: "I can be normal (to a select few)!"
It basically is probably an accessibility to insubstantial and the like, but why not treat its condition as a curse, and it 'being a real boy' as a very, very, very narrow special ability.
Like "I am nothing, but I can give 0.0001% of the population a hug, and if everyone dies...I'm screwed."

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Limitations can have limitations?

Yes, they can. They can have Enhancements too, just as Enhancements can have both Enhancements and Limitations too.

All that is required is that the Enhancement or limitation can be enhanced or limited in some way (there is, you improve or decrease the capabilities of the Enhancement or the Limitation, NOT of the Advantage)

For example:
Super Luck 100 CP
Alter Reality +100% (Gurps Powers)
- Acessibility (on Alter Reality) - Not against women -50%
Wishing +100% (Gurps Powers)
- Acessibility (on Wishing) - Not against people dressed in blue -10%
Final modifier for Alter Reality / -50% of 100 = 50%
Final modifier for Wishing / -10% of 100 = 90%
Final cost 240 CP

What does that mean? It means that this is Super Luck BUT:
- You can alter the results of die rolls AFTER the dices were rolled, retractively (Alter Reality), EXCEPT against woman. BUT you can STILL use your Super Luck without the Enhancement (that is, if it's against a woman you have to declare its use BEFORE the roll is made)
- You can alter the results of ANY rolls made about events that you can see EXCEPT against people wearing wearing blue. Against people wearing blue you can only use the Advantage without this modifier (there is, you can only influence your own rolls

So, to close it up:
Against males NOT wearing blue, full effect
Against females NOT wearing blue, you get only Wishing
Against males wearing blue, you get only Alter Reality
Against females wearing blue, you get only the basic Super Luck

Note how NONE of those two Accessibilities deal with the Advantage - you CAN still use the "raw" un-enhanced Advantage at will - you can decrete the results of a roll ONLY ABOUT YOURSELF and BEFORE rolling even against a woman in blue, but in that case you have none of those Enhancements.

That's why they are limitations to the ENHANCEMENTS, and NOT to the advantage.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Always on with an exception does not seem like always on to me.
If it's not always on then it's not always on

That's why it's a limitation of a limitation.
Always On, EXCEPT when...
Also notice that, in this case, placing a limitation on a limitation means that the reduction in price will be REDUCED, which means that the final price of the Advantage will be INCREASED.

For example:
Insubstantiality 100 CP
Always On -50%
Acessibility (of Always On) - Not against 100 Marked People -20%
Final discount of Always On - minus 20% of 50% = -40%
Final Price of Advantage: 60 CP (instead of 50 CP)

Why? Because you are effectively reducing how limiting the limitation is, therefore that limitation gives a reduced discount. Instead of "Always On, No Doubt", your limitation now actually is "Almost Always On".

You effectively changed your limitation to a new one, less severe.

Likewise, becareful when enhancing a LIMITATION, because that means you will be making your Limitation MORE SEVERE, which means that it will give a BIGGER DISCOUNT, thus reducing the final cost of the advantage.

And the inverse happens to DISADVANTAGES, there is, when you enhance them, you make them more severe, thus granting a bigger bonus. And the reverse for a limitation.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

that's why I initially went with thinking about the ghost afflicting someone with a 'buff' to interact with it.
After all the ghost is still insubstantial to everyone who is not marked, it's always on.
The mark simply gets abilities to interact with the ghost.
The affliction/buff is an innate attack that has limited uses that recharge upon a characters death, and the ghost gets affects subtantial with the accessibility on a marked creature.

No, that would allow the market to affect ANY ghost. Unless it had Acessibility: only on the ghost that market the person.

Yes, it could be done. There are several ways to cause an effect, but in those cases ALWAYS CHOOSE THE.CHEAPER ONE.

And an affliction with a permanent Advantage is NEVER cheap.

[KarlKost]

An example of Enhanced Enhancement:

Affects Others +50%
- Malediction 1 +100%
Final Cost: 100% of 50% = +100%

Now you can affect others just by looking at them, instead of requiring to touch them.

Of course, that would require GMs permission (in that particular case, which I personally think would be abusive)

[Lovewyrm]

Ok, I see the angle of limited limitations and the other variants, thanks.

But about the ghost then.
So in essence it's not a mark at all but a thing the ghost decides for itself whomst it can affect?

As in, instead of a mark, the ghost has a very specialized memory it stores a finite amount of living beings it is visible to in?
And slots get opened up when one of them dies?

If so, then I got that angle too, but I suppose I was hung up on the active deed of marking someone, after all what if the mark doesn't want it?


This is a vexing setup, if the ghost doesn't add anyone to the interaction list then the ghost is unable to affect the living, meaning it's a curse and being insubstantial is a disadvantage.
But if it decides to appear to someone, it's an advantage for that narrow spectrum.

Lol. I'd so handwave this for myself.
Weird Insubstantiability
confuses GM + 20%

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

An example of Enhanced Enhancement:

Affects Others +50%
- Malediction 1 +100%
Final Cost: 100% of 50% = +100%

Now you can affect others just by looking at them, instead of requiring to touch them.

Of course, that would require GMs permission (in that particular case, which I personally think would be abusive)

I think you'd need to add Ranged before you could tack on Malediction, but I could be mistaken. In either case, it's not terribly unbalanced, as you can only affect one target at a time.

One thing I've made a lot of use (in theoretical builds, at least) of Enhancing Enhancements for is to apply No Roll Required +100% to Enhancements that require a roll to make use of. For example, Super Jump with Bouncing (No Roll Required +100%) +100% can make an absolutely devastating character for slams (and as a side effect makes the character functionally immune to slams and falls, so long as the velocity involved in such is no greater than the velocity the character can reach with a jump).

[Pursuivant]

Possibly base the cost of the Accessibility on costs for Mindlink?

E.g., start with a -85% limitation, then reduce that limitation by value of Mindlink x 0.1%.

Thus, if your power can only affect one person, it's worth -80%, -75% for 2-9, etc.

If you can switch your pool of people you can affect, that's just Accessibility, Reduced Range (Reach C for touch), and possibly Takes Extra Time).

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Ok, I see the angle of limited limitations and the other variants, thanks.

But about the ghost then.
So in essence it's not a mark at all but a thing the ghost decides for itself whomst it can affect?

Well, the idea has always been that he would pick people to mark, was it not?

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

As in, instead of a mark, the ghost has a very specialized memory it stores a finite amount of living beings it is visible to in?
And slots get opened up when one of them dies?

If nothing else is added, the "mark" would indeed be invisible and the ghost would have to memorize who he marked (testing IQ for anyone he is not too close to) OR simply noticing that the person can see him, yes.

If the "marked" individuals however get a physical Mark that only the ghost can see, that would be a +1 Perk (the minor advantage to know who he marked)

If the Mark is visible to ANY ghosts, its a -1 Quirk, because other ghosts may use it against the original marker (starting "marked gangs" of mortals, for example)

And if the Mark is visible to ANYONE he must also have Affliction (Disadvantage: Unnatural Feature 1 CP) with the 300% enhancement for Permanent - in which case he could remove the "Requires HT roll" from the limitation of the limitation of the limitation of Insubstantiality (see bellow... You'll understand... Probably), because it would already require a resistance roll from the victim.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

If so, then I got that angle too, but I suppose I was hung up on the active deed of marking someone, after all what if the mark doesn't want it?

I didnt consider the possibility of the person being able to reject it, but if that's the case and the person doesnt want, which I dont think is possible since the victim would be unaware, but you could add a "passive resistance" with "requires attribute roll" ON ACESSIBILITY.

Now you've managed to place a limitation on the limitation of the limitation, I never thought that to be possible, congratulations:

Insubstantiality 100 CP
- Always On -50%
* Acessibility (of Always On) 100 people -20%
# Requires HT Roll (just an example) -10%
* Final Cost of Acessibility / -10% of -20% = -18%
- Final Cost of Always On / -18% of 50% = -41%
Final Cost of Insubstantiality / 100 - 41% = 59 CP

And in this case it got a 1 CP discount because now the limitation that was limiting the limitation was limited, making it less severe... I hope you are still with me here haha

Please no more, that algorithm is good enough already as it is.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

This is a vexing setup, if the ghost doesn't add anyone to the interaction list then the ghost is unable to affect the living, meaning it's a curse and being insubstantial is a disadvantage.
But if it decides to appear to someone, it's an advantage for that narrow spectrum.

Lol. I'd so handwave this for myself.
Weird Insubstantiability
confuses GM + 20%

It would be a disadvantage if the ghost had absolutely no way to do something about it. If he doesnt mark anyone however it will be his choice. For example, if I have the power to teleport, I have to pay the points for it, even if I choose to never use it.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Possibly base the cost of the Accessibility on costs for Mindlink?

E.g., start with a -85% limitation, then reduce that limitation by value of Mindlink x 0.1%.

Thus, if your power can only affect one person, it's worth -80%, -75% for 2-9, etc.

If you can switch your pool of people you can affect, that's just Accessibility, Reduced Range (Reach C for touch), and possibly Takes Extra Time).

Errr... Acessibility (Reduced Range)? That's... Not how acessibility works. That would just be Acessibility (Requires Touch). Acessibility restricts acess to some group or condition, the description already gives some parameters, Im just too lazy to look it up right now. Anyway, it wouldnt be what OP wants, because that would restart the "Always On" as soon as he dropped the target. And, if the target gets marked thereafter after being touched nevertheless, being touched or not to be marked is pretty irrelevant for the purpose of Acessibility, since the ghost is intangible and invisible he can ALWAYS touch his targets; that therefore is just a Special Effect.

[KarlKost]

So, to finish Op's question:

Insubstantiality 100 CP
- Always On -50%
* Acessibility (of Always On) 100 people -20%
# Requires HT Roll (just an example) -10%
* Final Cost of Acessibility / -10% of -20% = -18%
- Final Cost of Always On / -18% of 50% = -41%
Final Cost of Insubstantiality / 100 - 41% = 59 CP

The same modifiers go for both Invisibility and Mute (except "Always On" for Mute, obviously, but "Acessibility" limited with "Requires Attribute Roll" do)

Also:

If nothing else is added, the "mark" would be invisible and the ghost would have to memorize who he marked (testing IQ for anyone he is not too personally close to) OR simply noticing that the person can see him.

If the "marked" individuals however get a physical Mark that only the ghost can see, that would be a +1 Perk (the minor advantage to know who he marked)

If the Mark is visible to ANY ghosts, its a -1 Quirk, because other ghosts may use it against the original marker (starting "marked gangs" of mortals, for example)

And if the Mark is visible to ANYONE he must also have Affliction (Disadvantage: Unnatural Features 1 CP) with the 300% enhancement for Permanent (so it would have a final cost of 40 CPs? Im too lazy to look it up the cost of Afflictions right now) - in which case he could remove the "Requires Attribute roll" from the limitation of the limitation of the limitation of Insubstantiality, Invisibility and Mute because it would already require a passive resistance roll from the victim (Affliction ALWAYS allow a passive resistance HT roll)

Edit: dont take my Acessibility -20% at face value. I just randomly picked any value, because Im too lazy as of right now to look it up. LOOK IT UP. Also, if you choose a secondary Attribute for the passive resistance of the Marked, Will for example, it is -5% instead of -10%.
Edit2: The amount of Acessibility is what will determine how many people can be marked. For example, Acessibility (10 people) -10%, Acessibility (100 people) -20%, Acessibility (1000 people) -30% (all random numbers, look it up in the Basic the exact numbers), just remember that the more people can be marked, the LESS value the "Always On" limitation will have, thus the price of the advantage will INCREASE (each -10% on Acessibility in this case will increase the price by 4.5 CPs if it has "Requires Attribute -10%" or by 4.25 CPs if it has "Requires Attribute Roll -5%" (will or per).