New Reality Seeds

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by malloyd

If your agents on some Nazi parallel discover a Reich-5 operation, should they cooperate with the local Nazi regime to crush it?

This needs to be a world. Reich-5 shows up on a 1930's alternate where things are slightly different. Its pretty much a classic time war scenario: each side is from a history where their side won.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Fawcett-1 is identical to Homeline, except DC never tried to sue Fawcett over Captain Marvel (the red one) and thus there is a third big comic company in current year 1997.

In Fawcett-2 not only did DC not sue, but Captain Marvel's greater popularity caused DC to focus on crime and horror comics, ultimately removing them from the business following the creation of the Comics Code Authority and leading to Fawcett acquiring them.

Some other factors would have to happen to make either of those viable as superhero comics in general started declining in 1949. Shazam was really Fawcett's only memorial superhero and with the decline and the hearings they may have gotten out of the business anyhow.

Alternative history has a "The Weird, the Shocking, and The Suspenceful: an alternate comics story" thread. The premise is as follows:

Psychiatrist killed in drunk driving accident in Harlem
Noted German born psychiatrist Dr. Fredric Wertham, best known for his 1941 book, Dark Legend, and the 1949 book, Show of Violence, and current director of the Lagarague Clinic in Harlem, was killed by a drunk driver, whilst walking from his work place. Witnesses say..."
- New York Times, August 4th, 1952

"... His 1951 testimony in the Delaware courts about the detrimental effects of segregation on schoolchildren would later be instrumental in Brown v. the Board of Education, forever inscribing his name into the history books...

Among the items found after his death was an unfinished manuscript expanding on some articles he did on comics and its effects on children. It was never published, though his private notes did indicate his intentions to do so..."

- Excerpt from "Brown v. the Board of Education: The Players," part of a college seminar on the case, and all the factors going into it.

----

Other factors to consider.

Western Publishing (Gold Key's parent company) was very aggressive about getting licenses for popular properties. For example, Boris Karloff Tales of Mystery (based on the Thriller TV show) hit the stands in 1962 the same year the TV show went off the air. Twilight Zone #1 had a November 1962 cover date putting it between seasons 3 and 4 of the TV show.

In OTL Western Publishing had the clout to tell the Association of Comics Magazine Publishers what they could do with their Comic code seal.

Some more background information:

DC was doing Strange Adventures (August-September 1950) which went on for 244 issues. Flash Gordon was being done by Harvey productions and Dell. 1951 saw DC's Mystery in Space which would go on for 117 issues. Fawcett Comics printed comic versions of the wildly popular Captain Video TV series. In 1952 Dell printed comics of rival show Tom Corbett, Space Cadet and Ziff-Davis did Space Patrol as a comic in 1952

Then you had the independents.

Dell (aka basically Western Publishing) used Four Color as their test bed; if something was popular it was spun off into its own comic. Dell ran the Flash Gordon flag up the pole a total of 8 times and got a salute (ie spin off) ONCE. And Dell thanks to Western Publishing could in 1953 say they were the world's largest comics publisher which is also the year they put their Flash Gordon comic out of its twitching misery.

Atlas (which became Marvel) was riding the horror wave by adding to their already existing Marvel Tales (1949) to the point they were 'flooding' newstands with their product.

Before DC tried its revival with the Flash in 1955, Atlas had tried a revival of its own in 1953-54 with Human Torch, the Sub-Mariner, and Captain America which didn't do well. Superheroes just weren't Selling that well.

Leader News Co, the nation's weakest went bankrupt in 1956 causing a lot of small comics to follow suit.

The closure of American News Company in 1957 (described as "the nation's largest distributor and a virtual monopoly") lead to the death of many more comic companies.

With their distributor gone Atlas scrambled and went with Independent News owned by National Periodical Publications...who also owned DC comics. For all practical purposes Atlas stopped existing in 1957.

[Astromancer]

Taking Wertham out of the equation might have interesting knock on effects. In the book "The ten cent Plague" there is a list of artists and writers who, because of Wertham's promotion of a moral panic, never produced any further work. The list goes on for ten pages of small print with dozens of names per page.

Hundreds of artists who were chased out of the arts for life. Eliminate Wertham in 1952 and America would probably significantly changed.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Taking Wertham out of the equation might have interesting knock on effects. In the book "The ten cent Plague" there is a list of artists and writers who, because of Wertham's promotion of a moral panic, never produced any further work. The list goes on for ten pages of small print with dozens of names per page.

Hundreds of artists who were chased out of the arts for life. Eliminate Wertham in 1952 and America would probably significantly changed.

Some more factoids:

In OTL both Archie and Atlas did well in the early 1950s. Until the hearings Atlas was riding the horror wave by adding to their already existing Marvel Tales (1949) to the point they were 'flooding' newstands with their product.

Atlas ran into trouble not because of the hearings but because Goodman shut down Atlas News Company and went with American News Company in 1956...just in time for the Justice Department to bring the hammer down for Trust violations and the owners of American News Company decided liquidating the company was better for the bottom line then going on.

So Leader News Co goes bankrupt in 1956 they went with American News who ceases to exist in 1957 (Some people like to say that is why the government didn't do anything for the time Diamond was the only real option - it would have pushed an already shaky industry off the edge.)

if you really look at the comic world of OTL's 1957 things were very limited as you had distributionwise -

Western Publishing: Dell (who in the mid 50s had 15% of the titles but a 33% marketshare)

Charlton: unique in they controlled every aspect of their comics including distribution

National Periodical Publications and subsidiary Independent News: DC, Mad magazine (EC), and Marvel.

More over, 1948–1960 is regarded by some as the 'Golden Age' of the Western comic. It could be safe to say odds were if a comic wasn't horror or crime it was a western. Given how mid 1960s horror comics went I think the horror comic market would have declined with the Western comic market after 1960 due to a combination of Vietnam and simple burn out.

If you look at the "ages" of comics they last from 10 to 20 years and that is about how long Western comics were at their height. Westerns took a darker turn resulting in the "Weird West" era that can be summed up as Spaghetti Western comes to comics. Jonah Hex (1971) comes from this era.

I think with no Comics Code the Bronze Age (c 1972 - 1985 in OTC) with its darker tone would have happened much earlier and the grim and gritter tone we now have would have happened earlier as well. Perhaps 10 years earlier for each. This would mean an anti-drug superhero comic c1963 with Watchman and Dark Knight Returns like books c 1976. That means you may get a TV Batman more in line with the old serials rather then the campy one we got.

Superman and Batman actually started out somewhat grimdark to being with and had been lighted up in the 1940s in part due to the war. 1939 Batman ran around with a gun and wasn't afraid to use it The Thomas Wayne Sr. Batman of Flashpoint is only slightly darker then the 1939 Batman.

The best way to describe 1938-1939 Superman was imagine if you gave Sam Spade or Philip Marlow superpowers. "See this crowbar?' (twists it into knots) "This is how your neck will look if you don't tell me what I want to know' is the mindset we are dealing with. In his first appearance he punches a wife beater an scene recaptured during the Dominus Effect saga of 1998 (which had Golden, Silver, Bronze (polyester), and future (30th century) era Superman).

Going back to these dark roots was in a way inevitable. Superman was in heavy flux 1948-1958 with the 'member of a people who were the pinnacle of human evolution' original origin dropped for 'son of lone scientist who tries to warn people of danger but no one listens' origin that lasted until 1985.

Given the late 50s and 60s in general were seemingly cranking out biker films like there was no tomorrow (which was just an extension of the Exploitation films of the 30s and 40s which hid behind "educational" to avoid censors) something like Ghost Rider popping up in Comics Code free late 50s early 60s nearly seems a given.

The code produced some really off the wall interpretations of characters:

Superman's full origin didn't appear until Superman #53 (July 1948) and there they were still going with the apex of human evolution (complete with superpowers) slant even though Superboy (More Fun #101 February 1945) had established that Kyptonians were NOT superpowered. The first origin would be told for the last time in Superman #73 (Nov-Dec 1951) with the later origin being the standard until 1985.

But a new problem appeared: did Krypton have a space program? Superman #123 (Aug 1958) said yes with Krypton able to send criminals to astroids as punishment. But then a later issue was said Krypton did not have a space program and Jor-El had to conduct tests (this was to explain Krypto) but then it was said Krypton had a space program but then outlawed it because Jax-Ur blew up the moon Wegthor killing its 500 inhabitants with a nuclear warhead-equipped rocket (which left the issue of why Jor-El had to test anything or how he kept what he was doing a secret).

As the 1960s went on the issue of Krypton's space program become even more of a convoluted mess and the scientific wonders increased the ruling Science Council came off less enlightened and more a bunch of control happy blind idiots little better then the Nazis. As the Bronze age rolled around Superman was releasing "reformed" dissidents which really didn't reflect well on the Science Council or the Kandorians who thought nothing wrong with the imprisonment. Then there is the issue of if the Phantom Zone could be ruled cruel and unusual (a point touched on in the 'For the Man Who Has Everything' story)

The famous Superman Red-Superman Blue Superman Vol 1 #162 (July 1963) story is a text book example of just what was wrong with the character thanks to the code. In the story the two Supermen invent this "anti-evil" ray. Ok, but what criteria did Superman use to decide what was "Evil"; the American values he had been raised on or Krytonian values? And what gave him the right to judge the entire planet like that?

Though IMHO nothing shows Superman's moral compass being totally FUBARed thanks in part to the code then "Lois Lane...Dead...Yet Alive". As one reviewer states "Have you ever wished you could see a grieving Man of Steel pushed to the limits of his sanity, having a make-out session with a robot, trolling beauty contests for Lois lookalikes and tricking a woman into marrying him under the pretense of being someone else? If so, then Superman #215 (Apr 1969) has the story you've been looking for."

Let's not forget he "watches Brainiac and Luthor kill two people and because he really, really doesn't like the victims, turns a blind eye while they haul off the bodies (and even says, "Thanks")"

Sure the Code resulted in wonkiness in the stories but "Lois Lane...Dead...Yet Alive" shows just how off the wall nuts things could get for things to fit. Odds are with no code something like "Lois Lane...Dead...Yet Alive" would not have turned Superman into several shades of creepy.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Though we should also consider that focusing on Wertham might be some Great Man thinking: there had to be some amount of thought along his lines already or no one would have paid that much attention. We know adults will latch on to any excuse to place "corrupting children" blame on anything but society at large.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Though we should also consider that focusing on Wertham might be some Great Man thinking: there had to be some amount of thought along his lines already or no one would have paid that much attention. We know adults will latch on to any excuse to place "corrupting children" blame on anything but society at large.

Either Great Man or Great Moment has to be at least a little true (in game) for an infinite worlds setting to work. The specific list does matter, even if its just tweaked. But removing that one man probably won't completely change the overall effect.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Either Great Man or Great Moment has to be at least a little true (in game) for an infinite worlds setting to work. The specific list does matter, even if its just tweaked. But removing that one man probably won't completely change the overall effect.

Unless you enjoy campaigns where Centrum progressively weakens German Academic Standards.

[TGLS]

Tilt worldlines usually have two distinctive features:
1) Jupiter has an axial tilt of 176.88 degrees (i.e. it's upside down).
2) Cultures and civilizations are in the wrong places.

Tilt-1 (current year 1608) was originally believed to be a world where Polynesians settled South America. The maritime innovations spread to other Native American cultures, and resulting in a faster spread of disease following the arrival of Europeans. This has paradoxically made them better able to resist European encroachment, as the Europeans did not have enough time to capitalize on the weakness causes by disease. A reinvestigation following the discovery of Tilt-2 has determined that the pre-Inca and Polynesian cultures were swapped around twenty four hundred years ago.

Tilt-2 (current year 1270), was rather more apparent. In the mid-sixth century, the post-Roman cultures of Britain and the cultures of the Japanese Isles were arbitrarily swapped. This led to lots of chaos over the short term, especially amongst the Saxons, generally to the advantage of the Celtic peoples. The cultures have generally retained distinctive characteristics, though the Japanese adopted the Roman alphabet instead of developing Hiragana. Viking raids gave the Japanese more of a push to centralize. The Anglo-Saxons and Celtic peoples remain a relatively disorganized anarchy, and relations remain tense over religious differences. This does not bode well for a united front against a looming Mongolian invasion. Japanese Christianity is a syncretic mess, and has recently gained the attention and ire of the Pope. A crusade may be imminent…

On Tilt-3 (current year 2013), the swap has been recorded and is still current news. Last month, Canada and China (apart from the Autonomous and Special Administrative Regions) were swapped. The rather detailed and first hand account has revealed some details, such as that only some buildings are brought along (usually culturally significant ones), and cities are plunked in locations roughly matching the local terrain. In addition to domestic turmoil (none of the Infrastructure matches quite right), there is international turmoil as the United States must deal with northern border security, and China must face the separatism in now far away regions, along with the loss of most of its nuclear deterrent.

On Tilt-4 (current year 1992), no swap has happened yet. This has done little to dissuade scientists who are flooding the world in droves.

[Astromancer]

My mind is a pinball machine that just went Tilt!

Good one TGLS.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by TGLS

In addition to domestic turmoil (none of the Infrastructure matches quite right), there is international turmoil as the United States must deal with northern border security, and China must face the separatism in now far away regions, along with the loss of most of its nuclear deterrent.

The mass death is probably a more immediate problem....
Seriously the climate of Canada can't possibly feed the population of China, though the loss of infrastructure might mean half a billion people died of thirst in the first couple days. The refugee crisis on the US northern border is overwhelming.