The Politics of Transhumanism

[tessimw]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

Export the testing to small countries with lax human rights laws/enforcement.

Indeed, some countries may allow and even encourage such experimentations as a matter of policy in order to leapfrog into the fifth wave. I could see several of the TSA countries being willing to push that envelope. And there has to be some reason besides money (and the fact that bugs the Chinese) that the Red Duncanites tolerate Omokage Labs. It is even possible that an evolutionary quantum leap in human intelligences is worth the sacrifice, after all evolution is far more cruel, taking far longer for more minimal gains. Transhumanism is as much about the improvement of the species as it is about the improvement of the individual, so those societies that place a high value on the wellbeing of the individual may find themselves falling behind those who put a higher value on the wellbeing of the group and ‘unethical’ testing may not be so cut and dried. This is getting wonderfully grey…

Matthew

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If it is flawed, you can generally rewind the thing and fix it. And try again.

You can also test lots of stuff that doesn't touch the brain by editing those ghosts to be non-sapient and non-sentient.

This assumes the simulation is perfect. Good, I'll buy good, perfect is right out.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

This assumes the simulation is perfect. Good, I'll buy good, perfect is right out.

It's good enough to make a cumputer-run mind indistinguishable from a wetbrain-run one. Who are you doubting?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why? It's a scientific question,

It most certainly is not a scientific question. Science can can answer "why and how" questions. It can't answer "Is this too cruel to be inflicted on a baby" or balance the benefits against that question.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It's good enough to make a cumputer-run mind indistinguishable from a wetbrain-run one. Who are you doubting?

Not who, what. I doubt both the possiblity of perfectly modelling the world, even though I value and respect the uses of high quality models of the world. I also doubt the ability of any artifact to perfectly achieve what is possible. I have no issue with engineering per se, I am very much aware of the benefits of technology to me personally and to society in general. I think that sophistocated models can clue us in to many things and bring engineering to greater heights. I just don't think perfect models are possible, if for no other reason than you can't model chance.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It most certainly is not a scientific question. Science can can answer "why and how" questions. It can't answer "Is this too cruel to be inflicted on a baby" or balance the benefits against that question.

Agreed, morality can be informed by science and fact, but morality can't be a science or based on scientific princepals.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Not who, what. I doubt both the possiblity of perfectly modelling the world, even though I value and respect the uses of high quality models of the world. I also doubt the ability of any artifact to perfectly achieve what is possible. I have no issue with engineering per se, I am very much aware of the benefits of technology to me personally and to society in general. I think that sophistocated models can clue us in to many things and bring engineering to greater heights. I just don't think perfect models are possible, if for no other reason than you can't model chance.

So are you saying that you doubt THS has Ghosts, despite canon info?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So are you saying that you doubt THS has Ghosts, despite canon info?

Ghosts don't have to predict completely unknown environmental variables and they aren't modeling a system that doesn't exist in the real world.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Ghosts don't have to predict completely unknown environmental variables and they aren't modeling a system that doesn't exist in the real world.

1. That's why I said we'll need more powerful computers than the typical 'robot brain sized' ones. With some extra research and extra runs for the environmental factors.
2. It doesn't matter if what they model exists in in the real world. What's important is that they model something which is the result of something which existed. After all, if you can ghost a brain and let it learn and grow up and all, then at some point you're modelling something which doesn't exist (but could exist!).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

1. That's why I said we'll need more powerful computers than the typical 'robot brain sized' ones. With some extra research and extra runs for the environmental factors.

You can't include variables that you don't even know exist in the first place.