08-09-2021, 01:46 PM | #91 | |||||
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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All of this applies even within an edition. Just as GURPS Fourth Edition supplements must be checked against the entire Fourth Edition catalog, which makes them only marginally profitable in many cases, GURPS Third Edition ones had to be checked against the Third Edition library, and thus were barely profitable at the time. Checks across editions are extremely labor-intensive, and adaptations add almost the price of original development . . . to things that most GURPS fans won't buy because they already have them. There are also costs associated with updating the layout of another era to be compatible with modern software and printing solutions, with unearthing old contracts to revisit royalties (not just for writing, but also for art and in some cases typefaces), and with simply creating database entries both for internal use and to support the website. So, the only way re-releasing Third Edition materials is worth our trouble is if we can kick them out the door untouched save for the least of efforts to update layout. That way, we can keep prices low enough that the effort might earn back a bit of what it cost – both way back when and just the other day when we played with the layout and spent time chasing down contracts. Quote:
Another, more game-design-related reason is that adaptation is harder than writing a new supplement from scratch, because it's about searching one edition for the closest equivalent in another, and thus working with two editions on a technical level. Writing from zero involves half the technical research. All of which leaves aside possible lost sales to the few existing fans who would re-buy but decide not to because they disagree with the adaptation . . . And of course just because something sold well enough to make sense (and dollars) in 1991 or 2001 or 2011 doesn't mean it's a hot topic in 2021! GURPS has been around for a long time, and the hobby, the market, and the media environment in which those things, gamers, and designers live has changed many times. For instance, who'd want GURPS Alpha Centauri – a 2002 book based on a 1999 video game – in 2021? (Which reminds me: Licensed supplements are in their own hell, because they add the extra, usually very expensive layer of relicensing.) Quote:
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Which leaves books of rules (like GURPS Mecha, GURPS Robots, and GURPS Vehicles) and stats (like GURPS Spirits, GURPS Supporting Cast, and the GURPS Who's Who volumes). Those come with all the problems I just outlined. Where we believe that the current edition can't work as a generic, universal roleplaying system without the needed content, we basically redo from start, which describes the current editions of, say, GURPS High-Tech and GURPS Supers. But we won't do that if previous-edition sales were so mediocre that we can't justify another huge editorial headache (which is the problem Vehicles faces . . .).
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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08-10-2021, 11:59 AM | #92 | ||||||
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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I'm not hating on you guys for not doing it. I realize you make business decisions and I assume you have reasons. That doesn't mean I can't wish and in some cases wonder. I appreciate all of the explanations. That is more than you had to do. |
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08-11-2021, 09:28 AM | #93 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Niterói, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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I know that each case is different, each with its own peculiarities. D&D has drastic rule changes, WoD has setting updates. And I also know that aside from occasional exceptions (such as vehicles), GURPS tends to be much more compatible between editions than in other RPGs (which is a good thing). But it doesn't get out of my head that there may be a certain "cultural" factor involved. I don't know, I'm just thinking about it. Quote:
As Kromm said, the biggest problem is those books that are very rule-oriented and with rules that no longer work the same way in the new edition.
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“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.” Last edited by Arcanjo7Sagi; 08-11-2021 at 09:40 AM. |
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08-11-2021, 10:59 AM | #94 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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And small spenders tend not to buy every printing, revision, edition, and limited release version of the same supplement. If we had more fans who insisted on re-buying just the Basic Set in every single printing, we'd most likely think about anniversary and thematic bindings. If those were picked up en masse, we'd do it for everything. But the reality is that even when there's an entire edition shift that invalidates 90% of a supplement's content, GURPS fans seem to say, "Eh, I'm good. I'll just convert." I think that's just part of the fate of a toolkit system. While I love you guys for your motivation and ingenuity, I won't lie: I don't love the tight purse strings, because that's the one thing most likely to put me out of a job. When it comes to work, my nightmares are about that; my dreams are about all the people with accounts on these forums buying all GURPS stuff in every slightly new version, the day it's released. ;)
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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08-12-2021, 12:58 AM | #95 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Re: GURPS On Demand
It wouldn't surprise me to learn PoD reprints from the GURPS back catalog offer a better profit margin per unit than the production of new material. I suspect there are some production costs involved in preparing older works for PoD - anyone who has to wrestle with old Quark files has my sincere condolences - but I assume these are less than the effort of producing new work. Given the skyrocketing cost of international freight, I suspect distributed PoD operations such as the one offered by Amazon are the way of the future. This allows books to be printed close as possible to the consumer and limits the amount of inventory sitting around in warehouses. But it might make quality control tricky. Unfortunately, there are only a few companies offering an international PoD service at the moment. In the meantime, I expect a lot of companies in the RPG industry will be forced to embrace distribution via PDF as the primary method of getting products to consumers at a reasonable cost. The availability of cheap tablets and smartphones means people increasingly use them at the game table. I get a sense the effectiveness of Kickstarter as a fundraising method is starting to wane. The shot of adrenaline crowdsourcing gave to the industry will presumably decline over time as people become jaded.
So where does this leave GURPS? It can probably survive for a while on a combination of PoD re-releases and occasional new PDF products, but shiny new hardcovers will be few and far between. Perhaps original PoD softcovers could happen in the future, but that would depend on projected sales. Despite the growth of D&D 5e as a cultural phenomenon, I suspect other RPGs will suffer as margins get tighter. GURPS isn't as visible to the general public as it was there were books in physical game stores. But it's not the only game system in this boat. I don't think anybody has a good answer for the impending industry shakeout. |
08-12-2021, 11:09 AM | #96 | |
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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I don't have a massive gaming table but I do have bookshelfs full of books. Some of those are GURPS. I do have a network and I do have four running computers in my "office" / "game room". I like your current approach. A limited selection of printed books even if on demand and a lot of focused pdfs. Is there any thought to just going PoD from the get go? I know this would mean black and white interior but those books seem fine to me. I want you to keep your job and SJGames to continue doing what it does. |
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08-12-2021, 12:06 PM | #97 | ||
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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The issue with color is that it's something like twice as expensive to get color art AND 50-100% more expensive per copy to print (those are not compounding costs, but they are costs). But, to wrench myself back to the "tight purses" thing, the customer is not willing to pay a directly proportionate amount of that cost. They will pay more; they won't pay more such that color works are more profitable than B/W ones. So: it's a sacrifice to do color. POD is also almost always "and the vendor takes a hefty cut." DriveThru, for example, takes 35% of the post-cost profit for a non-exclusive sale. Finally, the BIG BOOKS folks want to see will generally bring in twice the revenue at four times the page count... So big, color books via POD are basically non-starters. Big, color books via short-run printing are marginal unless you get a hit. Like "can order and immediately move 1,000 or more copies" hit, and even then international shipping makes this a big-ol' question mark (and I do my longer-run printing in Eastern Europe thus far, so this isn't even a China question). Color books via short-run printing are what Delvers to Grow is. Up to about 48 pages (the limit on staple). I did the Omnibus as a 96-page perfect bound book...but even Peter Dell'Orto wished it would have been lay flat. (For what it's worth, so do I, but that's something I can only do long-run printing, with a sewn binding and literally 10x more sales than the book got from the project). In any case. I babble a bit. But I've done books ranging from 8 pages (Fantastic Dungeon Grappling) to 128 pages (Citadel at Nordvorn and Hall of Judgment) and not seen appreciable differences in sales and backer counts for them: 400 to 600. That puts the longer works simply out of reach for me, and those long works are - as noted by other authors and layout pros before me - more than proportionally difficult to get right. In short: going POD only doesn't really help much for getting a book made and out the door. It DOES help with a notional long-tail that hasn't existed in this industry to speak of for going on 10-15 years. Because you don't have to carry any inventory. But for making NEW stuff, you need that cash flow coming directly to you, not stopping along the way for half of the money to be extracted to "middlemen." I'll stop now. If you're curious about details, ping me on my Discord. I'm always around. (Link expires after 7 days)
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My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon |
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08-12-2021, 12:46 PM | #98 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that short B&W PDFs with the option to print certain ones on demand aren't the best option for the majority of GURPS support.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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08-12-2021, 01:19 PM | #99 | |
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: GURPS On Demand
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And I'm really happy with the small focused pdfs at a small price. I hope no one was thinking I disagreed with that approach for tons of things. In the last six months, I've bought magic, powers, martial arts, thaumatology, fantasy, low-tech, psionic powers, mass combat, how to be a GURPS GM in book form. So I am not unhappy. As far as I can tell these are all color covers with black and white interiors. Those suit me fine. I also bought characters, campaigns which of course are in hardback and are color interiors. I've also bought a good number of pdfs: Magic, Thaumatology: Sorcery, GM's Screen, Boardroom and Curia, City Stats,Magic: Artillery Spells, Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic, Magic: The Least of Spells, Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races I also got the pdfs from both kickstarters though I missed the first one so paid 18 for the 2020 and 3 for the 2021. I also bought the Dungeon Fantasy RPG boxed set. It's the only thing I regret buying and that is only because I realize now that I really don't want to play THAT style of fantasy game exactly and I'm better off just buying the GURPS dungeon fantasy supplements combined with other stuff. I confess that if the work is longer I prefer the book even though at times (Magic I'm looking at you) I may end up wanting the pdf also. So I like your format. Don't take any suggestion or question as a criticism overall. I'm not a Steve Jackson Games hater who just lurks on here and complains. If I ask it may be because I am ignorant. I absolutely do not want you all to lose money or go out of business. I appreciate the explanation for why you do or don't do something. I admit to not understanding the industry all that well. I'm a computer programmer by trade. I understand that industry. I find the insights you give to be fascinating. I find it refreshing that someone from the company even gets on here and answers questions. |
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08-12-2021, 04:21 PM | #100 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: GURPS On Demand
POD usually is more expensive per copy. It's less of a risk because you don't have to guess how many copies you're going to sell.
(Traditional print runs come in thousands, with significant setup costs compared to POD. So, you need volume to amortize those setup costs, and you need a market that will purchase thousands of copies -- which RPGs simply aren't, unless you're WotC. Notice Douglas' comment upthread about a mere 1000 copies being considered a hit. You have to pay to produce those thousands of books, even if you guess wrong on how many you're going to sell, and you have to pay to warehouse them until someone actually does buy them. If you operate out of Texas, say, I think there's also an inventory tax involved. So, you avoid sinking a lot of money into producing the books up front with POD. The advantage, if you can sell out, is that the average cost per book winds up being lower than with POD. Like so many things, mass production makes things cheaper, but only in volume. In small volumes, POD is cheaper since you can avoid a lot of those setup costs in favor of some smaller setup costs. And of course the writing, editing, layout, artwork, project management, and so on will be present in either method.) |
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pod; print on demand |
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