Ability to Shield Allies (Active Defense limitation)

[Farmer]

Thank you so much, Hide! I really appreciate your explanation and I think this offers a really nice option for the OP, as well as for me. I have a player in my new fantasy game who is a fallen Valkyrie and playing as something of a shield maiden. She has a focus on defence and defending others, so this looks like a very interesting option.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by Hide

I guess you want to make a shield ability akin to the ones we find in JRPG games? The shield-hero raises his shield and blocks attacks against the rest of the team? I have worked on something similar; it actually is a projected weapon that can parry substantial attacks. If you have parry missile weapons, you can also parry projectiles.

This works as a “natural weapon” that projects from your body, it "blocks" attacks against you or your friends (mechanically, it parries, so you can use it as many times as penalties allow you):

Natural Weapon (Projected: Shield)*

Crushing [5]
Requires shield (-10%), bring your shield or this won’t work.
Hidden (-20%), it shows when you need it.
Single, (-20%), only one natural weapon.
No Wounding (-50%), you cannot attack with this ability.
Projected (50%), the shield spawns where you need it.
Ranged (100%), x.5/x1, acc 3, bulk -2, works normally in melee range.
Increased Range x 10 (30%), effective range is 5 yards.
Resilient (40%), indestructible (parry anything).
Weapon adaptation PERK [1] (it works with the shield skill).
Sacrificial parry PERK [1] (natural weapon).

Final cost 15 CP.

*It may be subject to range penalties.

Powering up: The skill is also compatible with weapon master, trained by a master, enhanced parry, you may also buy “good defense” as part of the natural weapon, and you could add the “no range penalties” enhancement if range penalties bother you (although “good defense” buys -2 and is cheaper).

Actually, no, I was more thinking of the Champion Reaction from Pathfinder 2e, not Shield Hero.
That system gives you one reaction per turn (which can be various things) and the champion (less alignment restricted Paladin) can use his to shield a nearby ally from harm and also do some bad thing towards the enemy triggering it (that part is not currently relevant, but I could see using some form of aura to handle the part about automatically hitting someone trying to strike you).

As for your build:

Ranged attacks cannot parry.
You want reach (the +50% per hex option) and sacrificial parry instead.
Projected technically is only for ranged, but I could see that to get you out of the problem to need a free path to whoever you want to block for.

The problem in any case is: It only works for things that can be blocked in the first place with any modifiers for ranged attacks and such and given that any natural weapon does use at least one limb, you would need a modified "extra arm" to not also make it use your penalty for any defenses you have made with the limb in question.

Also, you could get the same with just using a modified extra arm, make it long, potentially "intangible" and add a perk for a blocking surface (I think that is how SUpers did it for the shield, since that one is build as a gadget limitation defense bonus).
I think going about it via natural weapon is unnecessarily complicated. ^^ ;

@Christopher R. Rice: The idea is to provide DR as an active defense.
It should not be a simple normal active defense to also protect against area attacks or anything else that cannot be blocked, be in addition to their ability to defend against it first (sacrificial parry or similar would happen BEFORE the ally gets to defend himself) and be mitigating damage instead of all or nothing.

As to affliction, yes, that would work in principle with a few issues.
The easiest way would be basing it on the Aura of power build, possibly with a larger area effect and possibly adjusting some details (like making it always on, not something to switch on or off, maybe adding no signature to make it non obvious, etc.), but that would basically be better than what I was thinking of.
The affliction would give everyone their own active defense DR. Meaning it would work a lot more often (because everyone gets their own cumulative penealty for repeated defenses). It also would be based on their stats (one could link a few level of enhanced defense to make sure a low Dex ally without combat reflexes still has a decent chance, or alternatively simply go with -10% for requiring a Dex check instead of an active defense roll).
Some of that could be solved with slapping on some modifiers or declaring certain things a feature, but it is a bit messy.
Also, it has the usual issues of all beneficial afflictions: It is relatively cheap once you have dealt with the initial cost.
Beneficial afflictions usually do not need more than one level of the affliction advantage.
Since you pay +10% per point of advantage the affliction grants, what this effectively means is that you pay the same price you would as for getting the advantage for yourself on top of the base 10 points and whatever you pay for the method of delivering the affliction (malediction, area effect, selective area, etc.).

I honestly think affects others is a better model since you actually do pay a multiple of the base advantage for the privilege of others getting to benefit from your ability.
And as I said, affliction needs some modification to actually have the limit of making it progressively harder to shield more than one ally per turn, which was the initial idea after all.

[Christopher R. Rice]

I recall Kromm's mystic shield defense from here. Might be a good middle ground.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I recall Kromm's mystic shield defense from here. Might be a good middle ground.

Aaaah, yes, I had actually had that at the back of my head for the extra arm option!^^
You could make that one long (+300% would give you +2 to reach) and then add sacrificial parry as a perk.

But again, that is for the "I try to block an incoming attack for my friend before he gets to try his own defense" option and will of course not work against anything you could not block.

I think this is the most proper build for that option, though, as I said, I would want something for mitigating damage, regardless of whether it allows a normal block or parry, after the ally had the chance to defend for himself, which I think only works with some form of Damage Resistance.

I do think it is important though to be aware of what each gives you effectively!
Getting to block at range for your friends can completely protect them from damage, but you must do it before they get to try to defend for themselves and it will be penalized by deceptive attacks and other modifiers.

[Christopher R. Rice]

This seems like Ranged + Force Field + Damage Resistance then. Possibly with a Power Block to increase the effect for an all or nothing attempt.

[Hide]

Right, I understand. Looking at the power you seek, I can think of two options:

Building a RPM spell to provide DR and Aura at the same time to your allies, then you can make all of the rules for its activation. One of the rules would be you have to notice the attack, and another that you decide whether it activates or not.

Giving your character a selective-reflexive-emanation ability; you could limit it for defensive purposes with something like “only activates when I or my friends are targeted with an attack I noticed and that I could have blocked with my shield”. Then you add DR for friends and Toxic for damage; it may or may not require FP for activation it might have limited uses in battle (for balance purposes).

To clear some of your questions:

Ranged attacks cannot parry.

This is not a ranged attack per-se, it is a projected weapon doing melee attack; projected is practically a cosmic modifier to adds utility to the attack. Think of the “dancing weapon” from power-ups 4 imbuements, but this is temporary, for defensive purposes and you are controlling it yourself (hence the range penalties).

It only works for things that can be blocked in the first place.

Yeah, like all weapons. It parries all kinds of substantial attacks, and if you have parry-missile-weapons, you can parry missiles. Mechanically, the shield lets you block a single attack. Now you can “block” several attacks. You will incur in defense penalties the more you have to defend, but that’s better than not being capable of using the shield after the first time.

You could get the same with just using a modified extra arm, make it long, potentially "intangible"

The “ghost limb” would be something else; simply adding SM+5 to extra arm for reach 5 makes it surpass the 50 CP; that could be a complication if you have budget restrictions.

[Yako]

This is not a ranged attack per-se, it is a projected weapon doing melee attack; projected is practically a cosmic modifier to adds utility to the attack. Think of the “dancing weapon” from power-ups 4 imbuements, but this is temporary, for defensive purposes and you are controlling it yourself (hence the range penalties).

Natural Weapon does have an enhancement for extra reach though. As I said, I think it is better to use that instead of ranged to avoid issues.
After all, this is build on sacrificial parry which works with higher reach.

The “ghost limb” would be something else; simply adding SM+5 to extra arm for reach 5 makes it surpass the 50 CP; that could be a complication if you have budget restrictions.

Given that the Kromm trait referenced was based on weapon mount, the easiest fix for that is using multiplicative modifiers from Powers (I personally always use them and I think this is a good case for why).

You would get:

Extra Arm (Weapon Mount, -80%; force construct, +50%, long +200%-600%) for 7 to 15 points.


As for making it a RPM spell, erh, I think that invites a whole other can of balancing worms.

Lastly, so far, I think my original outline still looks like one of the more simple sollutions.
Plus, adding extra levels of affects others gives it a nice option to scale up the number of allies you can shield at the same time.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Yako

(...) I think my original outline still looks like one of the more simple sollutions. Plus, adding extra levels of affects others gives it a nice option to scale up the number of allies you can shield at the same time.

I think you will be OK with either option you take.
IMO, Damage Resistance is the last resort; if you put it in action it usually means something failed (you got hit!).

Originally Posted by Yako

(...)As for making it a RPM spell, erh, I think that invites a whole other can of balancing worms.

I would let a DR-buff take part in the repertory of a wizard of a cleric, this took me to RPM, I envisioned a shield-bearer capable of doing small rituals to aid their friends in battle.

Originally Posted by Yako

(...)Given that the Kromm trait referenced was based on weapon mount (...)

We may have to take a look at the source; as I understand that solution was built to provide an extra option to protect the user alone.

The ability works by buying a third arm (made of energy) to hold a weapon (the shield, in this case), then the user has a chance of "wielding" two shields and thus making an extra block.

In fact, you must hold a shield in your third arm. However, it is suggested letting the user block with the arm alone; consider there might be certain angles you must take into account as part of this GM-Player agreement, for example waiving the extra shield’s DB or saving the player some coin.

Regardless, at this point we are OK; the ability is perfectly fit for its purpose.

Originally Posted by Yako

You would get: Extra Arm (Weapon Mount, -80%; force construct, +50%, long 2 to 6: +200% to 600%) for 7 to 15 points.

From the perspective of defending others at range, you still need to buy extra reach, and certainly include the flexible enhancement so you can cover the weird angles; this rockets the cost, even with the weapon mount modifier and ignoring the flexible modifier, you actually get:

Extra Arm +10 (Weapon Mount, -80%; force extension, +50%, long 2 to 6 +200% to 600%) for [27] to [65].

So, trying to imitate my build, you get:

Extra Arm +10 (Weapon Mount, -80%, force extension, +50%, long 5: 500%, Extra-Flexible +50%) [62].

Let's take into account that this build only lets you block 1 attack per turn. My build lets you block several attacks per turn, and it only costs 15 CP.

Originally Posted by Yako

Natural Weapon does have an enhancement for extra reach though. As I said, I think it is better to use that instead of ranged to avoid issues (...)

I have explored melee and extra reach; they have other implications depending on what you buy, such as requiring ready maneuvers to work the reach or taking penalties at "inappropriate" distances (such as trying to defend at reach C with a reach 4 weapon).

In fact, it should be simpler with projected; you only have a -1 or -2 depending on your distance.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Yako

Affects others seemed like the right start, though I definitely do not want the affects others + forcefield + area variant, which would after all not really work well for something like a chaotic combat with allies and enemies all over the place (and thus both inside any big forcefield a character could make).

P108's default enemy does seem like it forces you to defend enemies in range:

Together, these three modifiers let you extend your advantage’s protection to everyone inside your area.

The easy way to avoid this is by taking the "Selective Area" or "Selective Effect" enhancement.

I get confused about the differences but in either case it's +20% and you can say "protecting my allies, not my enemies" and they don't enjoy the benefit of your damage resistance.

This might also deal with the "Threats inside the force field bypass its protection" problem that normally allows a bypass, since you're basically altering the shape of your force field to exclude enemies and thus they can't bypass the DR protecting your allies.

One of the bigger issues I have with "Selective X" is just how accurate you can actually be, how omniscient you should actually treat a character/power as being when making such selections.

Like for example: if your ally and enemy switched appearances due to some magic spell: would your power know the difference, or select the wrong one to protect?

Or if they were moving around very quickly, would you know in real-time what hex an ally and enemy were occupying if they're zipping around at Move 10 between multiple hexes?

Seems like a place where Perception checks could be warranted. "Selective" being the capacity to select different hexes (area) or criteria (effect) but not necessarily the informedness on what-is-what.

Originally Posted by Yako

I was thinking of adding ranged (+40%) and likely reduced range for the maximum -30% (potentially with the -5% nuisance effect from psionic powers that actual range is just 5 yards).

The idea of adding Ranged +40% to "Affects Others" Force Field DR seems fine, just so long as you understand that as long as you're projecting your ability to a distance that you can't personally benefit from it unless you make it AE and you're in the AE.

The normal version (akin to Melee/Emenation) is centered on you so you're always in the AE and don't need to roll to target it.

With Ranged, there's a possibility that you can actually "miss".

It also seems like perhaps if a normally "free" or "always on" type of advantage (like Damage Resistance) is given Ranged, that maybe it ought to require an Attack (Ranged) maneuver to extend it places?

Either "end the ranged effect and recenter it on me" is a free action (automatic success) or maybe force them to make another roll w/ no ranged penalties (target own hex?) to do that?

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I recall Kromm's mystic shield defense from here. Might be a good middle ground.

Hm...

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd allow the arm itself to count as a shield to block -- it's an indestructible force! Use the standard Parry for an arm as your Block score, which is DX/2 + 3.
If it needs to be higher, buy Enhanced Block (Mystic Shield) [5/level]

This gets a tad confusing since there are mechanical differences in how blocks and parries work, like blocks working better against arrows than parries do.

I'm also confused with the writeup

Originally Posted by Kromm

Extra Arm 1 (Force Extension, +50%; Shield Mount, -80%) [7]
Shield Mount is by analogy to Weapon Mount. If being restricted to mounting and using one weapon is -80%, the same should go for any other dedicated-purpose limb.

When I read "Weapon Mount" though:

Instead of an arm, you have a “hardpoint” where you can mount a weapon.

The impression I get from that is basically "it can only wield a weapon, it can't do stuff that arms normally can do".

Which would include stuff like punch/parry.

IE if I had Extra Arm (Sword Mount) then I could mount a sword and use the sword to parry, but not do unarmed parries when I lack a mounted sword.

We do have rules in Basic Set allowing non-shields to Block on B375:

If you’re strong enough to grab and lift someone, you can block with his body!

If I can left-handedly lift up a 50lb hobbit by the torso and use him as an improvised shield, then I should be able to left-handedly lift up my right hand (which is the size of a hobbit because I am a giant ogre) and use that right hand as an improvised shield too... yes?

Although one major difference is you can position a hobbit wherevever you like, whereas unless you sever your right hand, the flexibility of the right arm it's attached to will limit how you can position it for weird blocking angles.

I had the impression that Weapon Mount was probably intended for non-ST ranged weapons (ie guns) as opposed to melee ones due to the explicit incompatibility with the Short/Weak limitations, both of which influence melee/ST-based attacks.

[Yako]

Okay, let me address the "selecive area issue".

This is I think definitely NOT intended to be how you do this.

The Variant with Forcefield + Area Effect + One Level of Affects Others is meant to give you a discount.
You need ONE level of affects others to affect EVERYONE inside your forcefield, with the DRAWBACK that it shields all of the area inside from everything outside without helping against anything that has managed to penetrate the barrier.

The alternative solution here is not to just slap selective area on that for 20% extra.
What you are supposed to do is take Area effect and as many levels of affect others as people you want to cover.

Affects Others
Variable
You can extend your advantage’s
benefits to others. If you can affect a
limited number of willing subjects by
touching them, Affects Others costs
+50% per person. This isn’t an attack –
it has no effect on unwilling recipients. You must take a separate Ready
maneuver to make contact with each
companion, who must be within
reach. This bestows the effects of the
advantage, not the ability to use it. You
turn it “off” and “on,” set its level, and
so on, and your decisions apply equally to you and all subjects.
Your ability only affects others
while they’re touching you. They can
end its effects at any time by breaking
contact with you. To affect those who
are merely nearby, add Area Effect – in
which case a Ready maneuver lets you
affect any number of people up to
your limit, if they’re in your area.

Just slapping area effect and selective area on some advantage is I think not a legal way to turn something that usually only affects yourself into a a shared thing, because this is exactly what affects others is there for in the first place.
Alternatively, use the Affliction model, but as I think I have stated, that is usually cheaper than it really should be because all those modifiers apply to the cheap base cost of 10 points, since a beneficial affliction means your subject does not want to resist in the first place.

Just from the point of fairness, +50% (more if you want area effect for extra flexibility of not having to touch) to give you a second copy of your own advantage for a team mate is actually a pretty reasonable deal, since otherwise, your ally would have to pay 100%, the full cost, if he just wanted to have the advantage himself.

Also: My initial build would need to replace the ranged with area effect, I did overlook that passage, but it actually does state how you are supposed to get rid of the touch requirement.


As to the Build for the "I parry/block for my allies":

The weapon mount's main issue is that a long arm is pretty expensive, sure, but specifically regarding Hilde's comments, you cannot get around that by just using ranged.
Ranged attacks can not parry (exceptions for power parries, but those do follow their own rules and those are optional rules which may not always be allowed in all campaigns).
If you want to do this via natural weapon or a melee innate attack or any other such thing, you need to give it the required REACH.

Extra Reach: Your weapon has a greater reach. Cost is +20%
per hex if you can only attack at maximum reach, +50% per hex
if you can attack at any reach, or +30% per hex if you can attack
at any reach but need a Ready maneuver to change reach.
Changing reach from C to 1 is free. If your weapon is very long,
consider adding Hidden (below) or Switchable (Power-Ups 4,
p. 17) to be able to pass through doors, drive a car, etc.

And mind you, this is a much better deal than long for extra arm since it is half the price (and does not have one dead level at the start) and is applied to the much cheaper base cost of a crushing natural weapon compared to an extra arm.

...I want to point to the fact though, that as said before, this issue vanishes if you use the Multiplicative modifiers from Powers, which frankly tend to remove much of the hassle from many builds that have a lot of necessary enhancements to work as intended.

Also, anything you would deem necessary for an extra arm to handle weird angles and positions would by necessity ALSO apply to a natural weapon by default.