is groin too easy to hit with swing attacks? are legs/neck too hard to hit with them?

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Rolemaster worked quite differently, seeing as the table weren't hit location tables, except incidentally.

We called this Roll-Master or Chart-Master, back in the day. Yes, I did own it at one time. I quickly grew to dislike it.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, different weapons should have somewhat different hit location tables, but does anyone really want to go to that much trouble?

<hand sky rockets>

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, different weapons should have somewhat different hit location tables, but does anyone really want to go to that much trouble?

That would be an oppressive level of detail for a game . . . Writers would need to create special tables for whatever weapons they introduce, and then we'd need to make space for them. I can think of better uses of both writing talent and page space – especially given how many gaming groups just ignore the rules for hit location.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

<hand sky rockets>

Okay, I found my copy of Sword's Path Glory (super-ancient and super OOP from Leading Edge Games). Checking its hit location tables, it has

• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Flat Snap. Subtables: target standing/kneeling, with/without shield.
• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Crossover. Subtables: with/without shield.
• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Overhead. Subtables: with/without shield.
• Stabbing Weapon Hit Location. Subtables: target standing/kneeling, with/without shield.

Damage tables were further subdivided between slashing, piercing, and impact, and also had a lookup based on armor type because it was calculating that you have to continue cutting through armor even after initial penetration, plus the damage tables were this complex thing where you looked up the basic force of your attack against the hit location table to determine depth (which accounted for things like bone) and then looked up the depth to determine wounding (which accounted for things like arteries).

[Kromm]

Looks like it would be really cool in a CRPG where a powerful modern computer handles all the randomization, decision trees, lookups, and math. Probably the sort of thing that would send 2021-era tabletop gamers running the other way, screaming.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Looks like it would be really cool in a CRPG where a powerful modern computer handles all the randomization, decision trees, lookups, and math. Probably the sort of thing that would send 2021-era tabletop gamers running the other way, screaming.

Leading Edge Games was better known for Phoenix Command, and managed to send even 1980s era tabletop gamers running the other way screaming. But yes, totally possible to run in a tabletop game, though it would either be a nasty data entry problem or a bunch of scanning. Of course, if I were going to do something like that in a modern computer game, I'd use a 3d model of a human body and some random scatter and you hit whatever the computer claims is in the way.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Leading Edge Games was better known for Phoenix Command, and managed to send even 1980s era tabletop gamers running the other way screaming.

I'd forgotten about Phoenix Command. We picked it up new for our group, with the aim of using it in place of the firearms combat rules in our higher-tech games. Then we put it down. I forget if it was the one with the transparent plastic templates to set down over target profiles, or if that was another system we bought, stared at, and hid in the basement.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd forgotten about Phoenix Command. We picked it up new for our group, with the aim of using it in place of the firearms combat rules in our higher-tech games. Then we put it down. I forget if it was the one with the transparent plastic templates to set down over target profiles, or if that was another system we bought, stared at, and hid in the basement.

The plastic templates was a different system, I'm blanking on its name (never got a copy).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by weby

Well, also dodging is easier when someone strikes your head than your torso normally and so on, specially so for thrusting type weapons.

I figure Tbone's +1 for mobile extremity at https://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-duck/ sorta covers that, plus also gives another +1 for flinching.

Originally Posted by weby

So for silly levels of realism you would need to have both different hit location tables based on type of attack and different modifiers to defenses based on type of attack and location.

One alternative to "Duck!" might instead use http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...d-Defense.html and the better reaction to attacks against your face could just be due to people's tendency to focus their defense on their most vulnerable area.

+1 to parry/dodge head attacks and -1 to defend against other regions is something I could see many opting for, since that's usually the unarmored area where even the slightest shock can cause worse a knockdown, a worse crit table, not to mention the risk of blindness and the huge penalties that can give

Originally Posted by Kromm

That would be an oppressive level of detail for a game . . . Writers would need to create special tables for whatever weapons they introduce, and then we'd need to make space for them. I can think of better uses of both writing talent and page space – especially given how many gaming groups just ignore the rules for hit location.

Many weapons seem to be lumped together under certain skills though, seems like the main distinctions are thrust v swing and perhaps length of blade.

A swung sword which can cut at 1,2 without needing a ready to change between could probably make an easier-to-hit sweep than just a reach 1 swung sword, for example.

Technical Grappling had generic notes for certain weapons (impaling and cutting AFAIK) for grappling and it wasn't that oppressive.

Tweaked random hit location tables with alternate penalty notes could probably be made into a small footprint, though this could be more complicated if it were also to be done for the non-humanoid RHLs too.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Okay, I found my copy of Sword's Path Glory (super-ancient and super OOP from Leading Edge Games).

Seems to have 2 books out in 82/83, did LEG collapse after that or something?

"GURPS Sword's Path" for 2030 ? :)

Originally Posted by Anthony

Checking its hit location tables, it has

• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Flat Snap. Subtables: target standing/kneeling, with/without shield.
• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Crossover. Subtables: with/without shield.
• Slashing Weapon Hit Location -- Overhead. Subtables: with/without shield.
• Stabbing Weapon Hit Location. Subtables: target standing/kneeling, with/without shield.

Hopefully it came with pics demonstrating what snap/crossover/overhead referred to because I don't know the terms.

Different hit location tables for standing/kneeling foes is something that could make a lot of sense, what are the chances of randomly hitting the foot of a kneeling foe whose feet are behind them via a frontal attack, for example?

Though I think that could be extrapolated to some degree from the basic set rules on 'attack from above' which substitutes some hit locations for others when there's a certain height advantage.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Damage tables were further subdivided between slashing, piercing, and impact

assuming slash/pierce is roughly swing/thrust I'm not sure what impact's meant to be unless it's just broad hits with big implements like Large Area Injury? IE if a boulder bigger than your head is launched at you it can't really hit your neck because there's not enough space between your chin and sternum for the boulder to make contact

Originally Posted by Anthony

also had a lookup based on armor type because it was calculating that you have to continue cutting through armor even after initial penetration

Seems kinda like how DR still applies. How would it's ablation system compare to Low-Tech's "damage to armor" rules for DR divisors happening at 1/3 HP ?

Originally Posted by Anthony

plus the damage tables were this complex thing where you looked up the basic force of your attack against the hit location table to determine depth (which accounted for things like bone) and then looked up the depth to determine wounding (which accounted for things like arteries).

doesn't seem that far off from Penetrating Damage x Wound Multipliers

I do like the idea of HP being broken down into flesh/bone though, as GURPS doesn't seem like it can cover stuff like "stabbed the guy in the jawbone and the tip broke off" since that's not a parry able to snap the knife and the jaw doesn't get DR like the skull/spine

heck not even the shin gets DR (despite MA's 'knocking shins' rule representing its hardness) so you can't have stuff like "broke my knife stabbing a tibia" happen

Jam-Fu is definitely on my mind with what happened to Weidman on Saturday

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

doesn't seem that far off from Penetrating Damage x Wound Multipliers

Let me give you an example, from a relatively simple damage table (some tables were 3x this size): the 'neck side' damage table (there were four more rows of armor in the original)

Armor                                                  Effective Impact Damage (EID)
 10 |   2   3   3   4   4   4   5   5   6   6   7   7   8   9   12  15  19  22  25  28  31  35  37  39  40  40  40  41  41  42  42  43  43  43  44  44
  0 |                           1   1   1   1   1   2   2   3   5   8   11  14  16  19  22  25  27  28  29  29  29  29  30  30  30  30  30  30  30  30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 SP |           1   2   4   55  107 108 110 112 114 116 120 129 147 188 252 316 380 443 509 550 567 581 583 583 585 587 589 640 692 693 694 696 696 697
    |                                                                 D      DD     DDD    DDDD
 DP |           1   2   4   55  107 108 110 112 114 116 120 129 142 178 238 298 359 419 479 515 529 537 542 544 545 547 549 601 652 654 655 656 657 657
                           Artery                           XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  Spine  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         Artery
                                                            XXXXXXXXXXXXXX  Windpipe  XXXXXXXXXXXXX

1-4 D indicate disabling injury with increasing chance of being permanent. SP indicates immediate incapacitation, DP is used later (via a separate table lookup) to determine whether the character survives. In practice all the lines past 107 sp/dp (severing the artery) are meaningless as the character at that point has a 99% chance of going unconscious and 90+% of dying, but that's the neck for you.