Why Does GURPS Hate Enchanting So Much?

[martinl]

Originally Posted by scc

WHY GURPS is set up that way.

GURPS Magic, in particular, right?

Other folks have already explained the legacy issue. (GURPS Magic's enchanting paradigm is not significantly updated from the old school days, when the main competition was AD&D and GURPS enchanting was remarkably well defined and permissive. Many folks on this list would love it if that book was redone completely.)

Other folks have also brought up some of the other options. Allow me to present three more.

1. Magic gadget based powers. Especially useful since 'cool stuff costs points' is a good lens to look at GURPS through.

2. Named items (similar, but you also have to provide cool deeds before you can spend the points). I highly recommend this or something similar since it helps deal with a classic high-magic RPG problem ("My character is less cool than her pants.") quite directly ("My character's pants are only cool because my character is so cool.)

3. Both of the above systems together (you can use CP to pump up your named item(s) directly.

[Johnny Angel]

It hasn't ever really bothered me. There's no reason that in-game time needs to advance one day at a time; in fact, that's one of the issues I tend to have with most D&D campaigns... that the characters go from level 1 to level 20/30 (depending on edition) in what seems to be little more than a few weeks. I see no reason why a GM cannot advance time more quickly.

"After defeating the goblins, there is relative peace in the land for the next 4 months. What do you do during that time?"

What's wrong with that?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

, that's one of the issues I tend to have with most D&D campaigns... that the characters go from level 1 to level 20/30 (depending on edition) in what seems to be little more than a few weeks.

90 days to level 20 if the 3.x assumptions are followed and the monsters line up nicely.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

90 days to level 20 if the 3.x assumptions are followed and the monsters line up nicely.

Right, so in three months you go from somebody who barely knows how to use a sword to fighting gods and cosmic beings.

[simply Nathan]

The only enchanting rules for D&D I'm familiar with were in one of the older editions there were 1-3 paragraphs mentioning the idea of a high level PC wizard or similar wanting to enchant an item, then basically telling the GM to require Permanency, the closest spell to the effect desired, and to wing the rest, and then pointing out that things like the dwarf-only Hammer of Thunderbolts or Elven Cloak need to be made by craftsmen of their specific races and cannot be reproduced by human wizards (giving no guidelines as to how non-wizard members of those races are supposed to do it).

And while I had a vague memory of D&D 3.x allowing PC enchantment, I refused to have anything to do with burning XP on an already IME sub-par player character class like a wizard or sorcerer. (My experience also said bards and monks were awesome classes so my experiences are probably not indicative of that game as a whole.)

I think GURPS gives reasonable enchantment rules, in the sense that the rules exist and in theory a PC could enchant items if he really wanted to, but at the same time he could spend those same points on generally useful adventuring abilities. It's not completely behind the scenes, it's just something that takes a long time and really high skill levels.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

And while I had a vague memory of D&D 3.x allowing PC enchantment, I refused to have anything to do with burning XP on an already IME sub-par player character class like a wizard or sorcerer. (My experience also said bards and monks were awesome classes so my experiences are probably not indicative of that game as a whole.)

I'd say that's a rather unusual experience with D&D 3rd Edition. In a campaign I am currently a player in, I'm playing a wizard, and there are times when I spend a few rounds intentionally choosing subpar options so that the rest of the party has a chance to do something. (Though I would agree that bards can be awesome. Many people disagree, but there are ways to use bardic abilities which are pretty brutal if you know what you're doing.)

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I can understand why the times involved with GURPS enchanting are bothersome to some people. It does take longer than in some other rpgs. For me personally, the default system doesn't bother me; I like that it makes an attempt to make enchanting make sense as it pertains to a world without magic-marts on every corner. However, not everyone likes that assumption; still, one of the strengths of GURPS is being able to turn options on or off to get the experience you want.

As others have mentioned, there are other methods beyond the default system. I see no reason why gadgeteering rules cannot be used to make magic items; just have the relevant skills be thaumatology, whatever skill is used to create the mundane part of the item (carpentry, armory, etc), and a spell which produces a similar effect to what you want the item to do.

You could also simply just say that times and costs are divided by a certain factor across the board. "In my game world, all energy costs and times for enchanting are divided by ten."

[ThatMusicWriter]

I personally love GURPS enchantment. Next time I play DF, I'm probably going to play as a healer/enchanter. The other folks'll have to guard me a lot, but it makes for a balanced group.
Reason being: I'd rather spend time than CP.

[scc]

Originally Posted by ThatMusicWriter

I personally love GURPS enchantment. Next time I play DF, I'm probably going to play as a healer/enchanter. The other folks'll have to guard me a lot, but it makes for a balanced group.
Reason being: I'd rather spend time than CP.

You do realize that DF specifically FORBIDS PC enchanters, right? And that unless you character has FP and ER out the wazoo he's not going to be able to make anything in a reasonable amount of time?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by scc

OK, while there have been many threads that talk about the enchanting system as presented, and some that even offer to fix it.

This is different, I'm asking WHY GURPS is set up that way.

Because it effectively prevents the player characters from making their own permanent magic items, thereby empowering the GM.

In most gaming subcultures, it's the GM who buys and therefore chooses the system, and most GMs like it that way: With them having the power, and the players not.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Perhaps if the limitation wasn't time, but unusual backgrounds and otherwise unnecessary skills (e.g., Craft Armor unusual background, and high levels in the Smith/Iron, to be able to craft permanent armor enchantments).

Edit: Or go the RPM route. Enchanted items cost character points. If you don't spend the points, the enchantment "wears off" over time.

Exactly. The solution is to have the "cost" of creating permanent magic items be something other than time. Because if you just divide the time cost by 10 or 100, the world pact is going to be clincaly insane.

The "RPM route" has a huge problem, if you actually insist that you are roleplaying, and that is that we don't know- and cannot know - what it looks like from an in-character perspective to choose to spend CP.