Questions regarding Camouflage, Stealth, and oddly enough, one eye disadvantage.

[Kingmaker]

In my game one of the characters enemies are going to be setting up an ambush, the NPC has camouflage and stealth. The players would naturally have their vision, and one player (not the target) has danger sense.

So a quick series of question for my GURPS Gurus.

1. How do range modifiers directly apply to vision checks against camouflage to spot the target? If my bad guy is a sniper in some trees, at aprox 100 yards (he wants to escape after his shot), what kind of modifier should apply?

2. Stealth of course is also an applicable skill, would the bad guy in question get a contested vision vs camo roll, followed by a contested vision vs stealth roll?

3. If one character has danger sense, but he is not the target of the assassin, would he get a ping for his buddy beside him being targeted?

4. Finally, does the one eye disadvantage apply to close combat techniques?

Thanks!

[davidtmoore]

1. Quick Contest Vision vs. Camouflage. Viewer gets range penalties (-10 at 100 yards), and the sniper gets +1 to +3 gear bonus for camouflage clothes.

2. I'd say no. Hiding yourself by looking like your environment is a subtly different discipline from hiding yourself by hugging shadows and keeping still. Vision vs. Camouflage while he's in the tree; the higher of Vision and Hearing vs. Stealth while he's trying to get away.

3. Not if the sniper has no intention of hitting the dude with Danger Sense at all, no. If there's a fair chance the sniper will spray the whole party to cover his retreat, then maybe.

4. Yes! Depth perception is less important closer to, but peripheral vision is more important, so call it a wash. -1 at all reaches.

[DanHoward]

According to both High-Tech and Low-Tech, Stealth affects Hearing rolls, not Vision rolls.

[Gnomasz]

So why does Chameleon give bonus to Stealth?

[DanHoward]

Camouflage will not improve your Stealth roll. However, if you are camouflaged, the enemy may overlook you even after you fail a Stealth roll. A failed Stealth roll in this instance would mean that the enemy has detected something unusual and looks more closely to determine what it is. A failed secondary roll (Vision or Observation vs Camouflage) may convince him that he was mistaken.

[davidtmoore]

That doesn't make much sense. "RAW Chameleon" gives a bonus to Stealth. If it's as-written, then it's as-written.

Also:

- Why does the Basic Set define it as "the ability to hide and to move silently" and give modifiers for cover?
- Why do Chameleon and Invisibility both gives bonuses to Stealth?
- Why does Action rule that Stealth is contested by the higher of Vision and Hearing?
- If Stealth doesn't work against Vision, what skill would you suggest one uses for concealing yourself given no natural surroundings or time to prepare?

I accept that sometimes rulings in the Basic Set are ambiguous and later expansions clarify, tidy or expand them, but in this one, with all due respect, I would say that High-Tech and Low-Tech are wrong.

[DanHoward]

To clarify, all of the items in High Tech and Low Tech that hinder an opponent's Vision roll add to your Camouflage skill, not your Stealth skill. Only the items that affect your opponent's Hearing rolls add to Stealth.

Personally I'd prefer things like camouflage clothing to give a penalty to your opponent's Vision roll rather than a bonus to your Camouflage rolls. That way you could roll against either Stealth or Camouflage and it wouldn't matter.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kingmaker

1. How do range modifiers directly apply to vision checks against camouflage to spot the target? If my bad guy is a sniper in some trees, at aprox 100 yards (he wants to escape after his shot), what kind of modifier should apply?

Range modifiers apply directly to vision checks against whatever. Also, lighting, general atmospheric conditions (fog, dust clouds, et al) and having a stick in your eye. Use the speed range table.

The fact that it's being opposed by a Camouflage check is a distraction. The net result is that it's harder to spot cammo targets from a distance, which is entirely correct.

Originally Posted by Kingmaker

2. Stealth of course is also an applicable skill, would the bad guy in question get a contested vision vs camo roll, followed by a contested vision vs stealth roll?

Generally it goes the other way around - Stealth first, to prevent the foe from getting his sensors aimed at you, then Cammo to try and deceive the sensors. YOu go straight to Cammo if the target is something that can't try Stealth (ie, a tank left sitting out in the open). For objects hidden inside things, it would be Smuggling (to prevent them from finding the right compartment) then Cammo (to prevent them from spotting it inside the compartment - but note that at this point you don't usually have range penalties on your Vision roll, and they can usually do a tactile Search at this point anyways ;)

Originally Posted by Kingmaker

3. If one character has danger sense, but he is not the target of the assassin, would he get a ping for his buddy beside him being targeted?

I would rule no, unless he ends up in the line of fire from a missed shot.

Originally Posted by Kingmaker

4. Finally, does the one eye disadvantage apply to close combat techniques?

By the rules, yes. Close combat techniques ALSO take normal penalties for darkness, fog, Bad Vision, and Blindness. As a GM I think I'd happily waive or at least halve the penalties on follow-up rolls to pin, twist arms, and etc because you've already got your hands on the guy, I'm not sure how much vision factors in at this point... but that would be a house rule.

Important note is that I've only trained in TKD, with enough coverage of police hand-to-hand subdual techniques to put the fear of grapplers into me and not enough to make me into any sort of close combat fighter. I'd consult with someone who does a grappling, ground combat style before really questioning if this needs patching. All of my training says about the subject is "scream for help, kick them a few times in the shins, get up quickly, run like the dickens"

[Bruno]

As a side note, reorganizing Stealth and Cammo into "Sit or Move Silently", "Hide behind things", and a third "assistant" skill of Cammouflage to give penalties to enemy vision rolls would be interesting, but I'm not entirely convinced it's a useful split.

There's heavy cross-over between moving so you don't make a sound, and moving so you don't attract visual attention even if you don't have cover (mostly "move very slowly" but watching stick insects impersonate wind-blown twigs as they walk is educational). And if you DO have cover, you don't need a skill roll to stay behind it.

But not attracting visual attention while moving (or sitting) without actual cover requires a messy background and basic camouflage (if only a wild rabbits mottled brown and counter-shadow white underbelly when sitting in green-yellow grass) or a good distraction for the observer. So we're back to camouflage again.

I've been round and round this particular mulberry bush in my head, and I've given up and decided Stealth/Camouflage is a workable game-able abstraction.

The way I sorted it out in my head, fwiw, is that if you blow the Stealth/Vision or Stealth/Hearing contest (whichever was better for the observer, counting range penalties) but make the Cammo/Vision contest, the observer suspects Something Is Out There and is on alert, but can't pinpoint your location and isn't sure what it is they noticed (gets a bonus equal to half his margin of success on initiative to avoid partial surprise ) If you can avoid being caught for a bit, they'll go off alert and you can go back to trying to sneak past them.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you can avoid being caught for a bit, they'll go off alert and you can go back to trying to sneak past them.

"Huh, only thing here is this cardboard box. Oh well." :-)