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Old 05-27-2023, 12:16 AM   #11
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
This is the aspect of Social Stigma that gets soft-pedaled in RAW. While non-prejudiced people might be superficially nice to you in social situations that don't matter that much or where it's to their long-term advantage to be nice, many or all methods of gaining REAL social clout are right out.

"Baseline" members of the society - the people who don't operate under a stigma - define some or all of their self worth based on NOT being like you and being able to own or control people of your type. The more cynical members of the power elite maintain and gain control by inflaming popular sentiment against you. Attempt to shake up that social dynamic and baseline members of the society go crazy, especially the more authoritarian types who are looking for any excuse to enforce their dominance.

If you've got a Social Stigma, forget gaining Status above a certain level (at least in your own right) and expect huge numbers of Enemies if you gain any degree of Wealth. Forget gaining social clout via the usual means - academia, business, military, politics, or religion. Forget gaining access the corridors of power to influence decision makers unless they're immediate family members and you can exert intense informal emotional or social control over them.i[/URL].
That mostly manifests as taboo traits rather than disadvantages as such. In realistic Victorian Britain a (known to be) woman can not be elected Prime Minister or inherit a dukedom, or acquire military rank. Those are traits that just contradict that particular social stigma in that particular setting but they aren't worth points and they aren't invariant from setting to setting. For example Othello has a social stigma but it doesn't keep him from being a general in the Venetian army
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Old 05-27-2023, 09:20 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
That might be a good reason to have a talk with players who plan on taking a Social Stigma disad, and either disallowing it if they can't handle the consequences of playing that sort of character, or fudging the setting to remove said consequences, but still refusing to give them free points for a disadvantage that is no-longer worth that much.
To tell you the truth it looks more like some people in this thread are trying to make Social Stigma more restricting than the RAW. As long as a player takes a -1 on the Reactions table for every 5 cp of the Disad he has he's following the RAW.

What others appear to be trying to hang on Social Stigma are setting-wide Traits or even Intolerances on NPC's character sheets. The GM should probably warn PCs about those but it's nothing to do with Social Stigma.

Perhaps the GM should _require_ Social Stigma for some character concepts as part of how that concept works in his setting.
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Old 05-27-2023, 10:13 AM   #13
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
To tell you the truth it looks more like some people in this thread are trying to make Social Stigma more restricting than the RAW. As long as a player takes a -1 on the Reactions table for every 5 cp of the Disad he has he's following the RAW.

What others appear to be trying to hang on Social Stigma are setting-wide Traits or even Intolerances on NPC's character sheets. The GM should probably warn PCs about those but it's nothing to do with Social Stigma.

Perhaps the GM should _require_ Social Stigma for some character concepts as part of how that concept works in his setting.
Intolerance and Social Stigma are different ways of modeling the same thing, but I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with each other. A character with Intolerance reacts at -3 to members of the relevant group, if everyone in a setting is Intolerant towards you, isn't that the equivalent of a -15 point Social Stigma? In fact I seem to remember some books suggesting that Intolerance ceases to be a disadvantage when your prejudices are the norm.

Also, Social Stigma (Valuable Property) means there is precedent for non-reaction-penalty effects of Social Stigma. Part of my thinking starting this thread was that in certain cultures, it might make sense to model women as having a -5 point Social Stigma that doesn't (or doesn't usually) grant a reaction penalty but has other downsides to make it worth -5 points.
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Old 05-27-2023, 10:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

Probably just a baseline, and can (and perhaps is intended to be) stacked with intolerance and the like for greater penalties.

This kind of discrimination can be extremely casual and very common, after all, but might not actually have much of an impact.

"I love women, but I wouldn't let them drive my car"

A -1 possibly reflects such overall things.
Doesn't mean that everyone who has such prejudices would treat women in the worst way possible.
Unless they are sadistic, bullies, intolerant, a code they have to follow (eating pork is unclean is not that different to, a woman on her period is unclean and must be locked into a basement where she has to kneel on lego blocks and UK power plugs until her vile excretions cease)
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Old 05-27-2023, 02:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
Unless they are sadistic, bullies, intolerant, a code they have to follow (eating pork is unclean is not that different to, a woman on her period is unclean and must be locked into a basement where she has to kneel on lego blocks and UK power plugs until her vile excretions cease)
I think you meant that tongue in cheek, but in case you didn't those are no where near the same thing.

Refusing to eat pork because it's unclean is similar to refusing to sleep in the same bed as a menstruating woman.

When you add on the basement/kneeling/legos that becomes external to another person, and no longer just a person adhering to an internal choice.
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Old 05-27-2023, 07:37 PM   #16
RGTraynor
 
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
To tell you the truth it looks more like some people in this thread are trying to make Social Stigma more restricting than the RAW. As long as a player takes a -1 on the Reactions table for every 5 cp of the Disad he has he's following the RAW.

What others appear to be trying to hang on Social Stigma are setting-wide Traits or even Intolerances on NPC's character sheets. The GM should probably warn PCs about those but it's nothing to do with Social Stigma.
Hardly. You're only using part of RAW. The text reads "A Social Stigma gives you a reaction penalty (-1 per -5 pts of SS), restricts your social mobility, or both." (Emphasis mine.) The particular variants are riddled with restrictive language well beyond a mere -1 Reaction Roll, and I'd argue that Social Stigma is underpriced.
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Old 05-27-2023, 08:02 PM   #17
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Hardly. You're only using part of RAW. The text reads "A Social Stigma gives you a reaction penalty (-1 per -5 pts of SS), restricts your social mobility, or both." (Emphasis mine.) The particular variants are riddled with restrictive language well beyond a mere -1 Reaction Roll, and I'd argue that Social Stigma is underpriced.
If a particular Social Stigma does do both it's definitely underpriced. 5 pts per -1 to Reaction Rolls is standard pricing.

The two effects shouldn't be smooshed together like that. We probably need aa reverse of Legal Immunity, call it "Legal Restriction" maybe, for someone who has significantly fewer civil rights than normal.
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Old 05-27-2023, 08:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
To tell you the truth it looks more like some people in this thread are trying to make Social Stigma more restricting than the RAW. As long as a player takes a -1 on the Reactions table for every 5 cp of the Disad he has he's following the RAW.
It is generally easiest to treat social stigma as an average of -1. Being female is not really a universal reaction penalty, it's more like a larger penalty when you try to do things outside of your role.
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Old 05-27-2023, 08:34 PM   #19
mburr0003
 
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
... decline a husband's sexual advances, avoid being beaten at will by fathers/guardians/husbands...
That has less to do with the Social Stigma and far, far more to do with the Disads of the males in question.

And the status of the men in question.
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Old 05-27-2023, 11:40 PM   #20
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Intolerance and Social Stigma are different ways of modeling the same thing, but I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with each other. A character with Intolerance reacts at -3 to members of the relevant group, if everyone in a setting is Intolerant towards you, isn't that the equivalent of a -15 point Social Stigma? In fact I seem to remember some books suggesting that Intolerance ceases to be a disadvantage when your prejudices are the norm.
s.
Yes. If a character is Intolerant toward black people and the setting is the 19th century United States then they react to (free) black people at -5.
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