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Old 06-02-2023, 07:13 AM   #11
Tinman
 
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

I think a problem in this conversation is the mixup of two diffent tipes of things called jets.

One is the innate attack modifier which seems to be a ranged attack with 1/2d & max range.
The other is the spell type jet. Those list them as melee attacks with reach & do not list a 1/2d & max range.

This seems to be a holdover from 3e (similar to my question on sunbolt).
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:21 AM   #12
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I think a problem in this conversation is the mixup of two diffent tipes of things called jets.
Three if you count flamethrowers separately, but:
Quote:
One is the innate attack modifier which seems to be a ranged attack with 1/2d & max range.
The other is the spell type jet. Those list them as melee attacks with reach & do not list a 1/2d & max range.
.
Jet spells do have a max range, and otherwise behave like innate attacks with the 1/2 D bought up to equal max and max range reduced to 1 to Magery yards.

Innate attack is a pretty flexible advantage and can fairly easily replicate jet spells or flamethrowers exactly. Either way it will have the Jet modifier.
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Three if you count flamethrowers separately, but:

Jet spells do have a max range, and otherwise behave like innate attacks with the 1/2 D bought up to equal max and max range reduced to 1 to Magery yards.

Innate attack is a pretty flexible advantage and can fairly easily replicate jet spells or flamethrowers exactly. Either way it will have the Jet modifier.
Really? Because according to MAGIC p.73 for flame jet it says:
(I'm redacting & editing a lot so as not to post the whole spell.)
(edit: it seems like I was wrong about jet having reach instead of range tho.)

Flame Jet, -Regular (not ranged)
Shoot a jet of flame from one fist.
Treat it as a hand weapon
– a flaming sword without the sword
– but it cannot parry!
This is good for melee combat, etc.
... a Flame Jet in each hand

For cinematic mage-dueling action,
the GM may allow a Flame Jet to parry another Flame Jet.

Cost: 1 to 3 points.
Does 1d damage for each point put into the spell.
The jet’s range in yards is equal to the number of dice.
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Old 06-02-2023, 09:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Flame Jet, -Regular (not ranged)
GURPS doesn't have 'ranged' spells. There are melee and missile spells, and jets aren't listed as either, so there's no really help from that.

DFRPG describes 'jet' under regular spells, describes jets as acting like melee weapons, but gives them a range instead of a reach.

Again, I don't think legalistic reading of the rules is going to give a definitive answer to this. From the description, there's no reason to believe that jets have a specific 'reach' stat like a melee weapon, and if they did, that it would start at 1 and go out to max range for some reason. They can hit anything within the range given in the spell description, including something in close combat with the caster.
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Old 06-02-2023, 02:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If you want your Jet to have appreciable splash, you'll want to toss some level of Explosion on some of the damage (this would be a good case for the GM to waive the "burning or crushing only" requirement). Say you toss Explosion on 10% of the damage (for net +5%). This would mean anything in the same hex as the target will take 10% of the rolled damage as "splash damage," anything 1 yard away will take around 3.33%, anything 2 yards away will take around 1.67%, etc (although unless you've got really high initial damage, this will typically just mean damage to those in the same hex and maybe a bit to those a yard away).
We're not talking "yards" away. The OP's talking inches away. I'm with Mr Sandman -- this is a matter of common sense, rather than a legalistic reading of the rules. If I am aiming a jet that by definition is at minimum a yard long at something a foot away, that flame or acid is not simply going to vanish. It's going to go somewhere.
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Old 06-02-2023, 02:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
We're not talking "yards" away. The OP's talking inches away. I'm with Mr Sandman -- this is a matter of common sense, rather than a legalistic reading of the rules. If I am aiming a jet that by definition is at minimum a yard long at something a foot away, that flame or acid is not simply going to vanish. It's going to go somewhere.
So why doesn't it splash on and hit the horse when you shoot its rider? Or do extra damage against a swarm? Or harm both characters when you aim at someone grappling someone else? Because, by default, a Jet doesn't splash. You can build it so it does, of course, but in GURPS you get what you pay for (which is also why ATR only gives you extra maneuvers, it doesn't give you free bonuses to attack and defend because everything is moving at half speed or less).

That said, considering we're likely looking at a pretty small Enhancement to make it splash, the GM would be perfectly justified in basically just giving that out for free if it ever comes up and the table decides that, yeah, this Jet should absolutely splash. But it should be applied consistently, not only when it would screw over the player (from using their splashing Jet point-blank).
EDIT: I should note here I'm not accusing people of purposefully trying to screw over a player who uses their Jet in such a manner, I'm just arguing that if you do decide to make a given Jet splash, it should always splash (or at least always do so going forward - maybe nobody thought about the splashing possibilities in previous cases where it would have mattered, but you could certainly change it going forward). You could also opt to make it always just have a chance to splash - this would normally be something like the Unreliable Limitation applied to the Enhancement (making it cost less still), but of course if you're just making it splash by fiat you don't need to properly stat it out, just note the mechanics.
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Last edited by Varyon; 06-02-2023 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 06-03-2023, 12:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
So why doesn't it splash on and hit the horse when you shoot its rider? Or do extra damage against a swarm? Or harm both characters when you aim at someone grappling someone else?
Because a lot of folks prefer to seize upon a legalistic reading of the rules instead of applying common sense; that's why.

Granted, in dealing with your specific questions, only the last one's pertinent here. If I'm shooting a jet at a rider on a horse, I'm obviously doing it at range, and the horse is slightly further away from a center mass shot than inches. If I'm shooting a jet at a swarm, I'm not only doing it at range, but the degree to which a single rat or a single hornet provides any resistance to cause a splash is somewhere between "insignificant" and "what the heck is wrong with anyone fancying that could happen?"

Potentially harming both characters when you aim at someone grappling someone else? Well, yeah: you're firing a jet. Into a wrestling match. Common sense time.
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Old 06-03-2023, 12:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Because a lot of folks prefer to seize upon a legalistic reading of the rules instead of applying common sense; that's why.
Common sense tells you that experiencing the world as though everything were moving at 1/2 speed would make it laughably easy to hit even a defending target (they cannot react quickly enough) and avoid hits, and would also allow you to hit harder (as your strikes are moving at 2x normal speed). But Altered Time Rate doesn't do that - it gives you an additional maneuver, and that's it - at best you can functionally reduce yourself to normal speed but get a +4 to hit or +2 to damage alongside a +2 to a single method of defense by using All Out Attack for first maneuver, All Out Defense for the second. Note the discrepancy between what the trait does and what "common sense" tells you it should do gets greater the more levels of it you have. Again, GURPS is a "get what you pay for" system.

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If I'm shooting a jet at a rider on a horse, I'm obviously doing it at range, and the horse is slightly further away from a center mass shot than inches.
... if you're shooting at center-mass and the jet is composed of something that will cease to exist within a foot but not within a few inches. If you're hitting the waist or leg of the rider, the horse is going to be really close. If you're using something that doesn't cease to exist within a foot of splashing (and if it does, it's probably not going to splash back on you in CC anyway unless you were literally grappling the foe), a center-mass hit on the rider is going to splash onto the horse's back.

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If I'm shooting a jet at a swarm, I'm not only doing it at range, but the degree to which a single rat or a single hornet provides any resistance to cause a splash is somewhere between "insignificant" and "what the heck is wrong with anyone fancying that could happen?"
A hornet probably isn't going to generate much splash, but a rat would. Also, you should have the option to aim at the hex containing the swarm and rely on the splash to hit the swarm.
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Old 06-03-2023, 01:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Because a lot of folks prefer to seize upon a legalistic reading of the rules instead of applying common sense; that's why.
Which is why it's called RAW.

GURPS is a "get what you pay" system, a lot of abilities are called one thing, but actually function as something slightly (or grossly) different, fluff text and common sense do not trump "RAW". But, it's also a Rule Zero thing whatever works at your table is what works.

Personally? Jet powers don't splash (unless they pay for it). Jet equipment, might or might not, it's probably situational, but usually I do not have that splash either (mostly because it's one of those "probably helps the PCs far more than the NPCS, and would definitely induce endless Player whining when it does screw them over).
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Old 06-04-2023, 06:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jet minimum reach

I don't know if any weapon has a minimum reach, so long as you apply the Long Weapons in Close Combat penalty of using it at -4 to skill for every yard less than Reach you're using it at.
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