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Old 07-03-2021, 07:39 AM   #11
WingedKagouti
 
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

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Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
My take is that Alchemy is purely making things with known substances. Herb Lore is knowing where to find those substances and perhaps some natural uses. I would default them both to each other at a penalty when the specifics overlap.
That's in direct opposition to the description of Herb Lore. The very first sentence of the skill description:
Quote:
Originally Posted by B199
This is the ability to manufacture herbal concoctions that have magical effects
Both skills are for the actual creation of potions. The two major differences are that Alchemy allows for analysis of potions and magical items while Herb Lore lets you use free/cheaper components if you can find them using Naturalist.

Alchemy might require an actual dragon's tooth (and not just a plant with that name), Herb Lore is not going to tell you where to find a dragon.
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Old 07-03-2021, 08:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

Herb Lore is analogous to Pharmacy (Herbal). Would you require regional specializations for that, too?
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Old 07-03-2021, 12:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

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Herb Lore is analogous to Pharmacy (Herbal). Would you require regional specializations for that, too?
It's realistic, but there's a more important question. Is it fun?
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Herb Lore is analogous to Pharmacy (Herbal). Would you require regional specializations for that, too?
Depending on the setting, probably. Even making Herb Lore a regional skill depends a bit on the setting. If the entire game is going to be set in one area with no effective difference in what's available, then it doesn't matter, though I might still allow Herb Lore to be at the lower difficulty to express how much more common it is than Alchemy (and I'd probably go through the list of elixirs in Magic and declare some of them unavailable or more difficult for all Herb Lorists in the campaign region). If the game involves traveling to exotic locations, the availability or unavailability of ingredients could be an important plot point, as could the local Herb Lorists having concoctions a PC Herb Lorist has never heard of, and vice versa. The same could be true for Pharmacy (Herbal).

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It's realistic, but there's a more important question. Is it fun?
That is an important point. I could say that it's up to the GM to make it fun, but really it depends on both the GM and the players - on what sort of game they want to play.
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Old 07-04-2021, 04:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
That's in direct opposition to the description of Herb Lore. The very first sentence of the skill description:


Both skills are for the actual creation of potions. The two major differences are that Alchemy allows for analysis of potions and magical items while Herb Lore lets you use free/cheaper components if you can find them using Naturalist.

Alchemy might require an actual dragon's tooth (and not just a plant with that name), Herb Lore is not going to tell you where to find a dragon.
I confess I don't know all the skills by heart. Herbal lore sounded like a skill you'd find things with but apparently not as you've shown.

So I'd be looking for a skill that is about mixing known ingredients and getting a result. I'm also looking at some skills that help me find the ingredients. I don't think those have to overlap but anyone training in making items would surely get a default at finding them.


In the rules,
It looks like they are the same skill as to output and really just separated by how you go about getting the ingredients. Herbal Lore is more outdoors and Alchemy is more magical requirements. Alchemy does get the analysis I guess. I don't think Herbal Lore is well named to be honest.
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Old 07-04-2021, 05:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Herb Lore as a more Regional Skill

Imo (and that's important to note as many of my conclusions come from the application of rules in *my* campaign) alchemy, herb lore, armory, and a few others mingled in have not been handled well, mostly in terms of clarity.
Part of that is because (see the above disclaimer) what is being done with each skill or ability isn't delineated well. This is difficult to do when we have a commingling of real and fantasy.

In a non-magical setting plants have properties, mainly chemical properties. When applied it to living creatures these chemical properties can produce different results such as reducing inflammation, helping reduce chances of infection, alleviating inflammation, etc... Herbs (speaking as a general grouping) also have applications for cooking.
All of this would be known by somebody with naturalism, cooking (possible penalty depending on the plant), herb lore, and naturalist (will it possible penalty depending on the plant or desired effect).
When used for healing purposes then skills in herbery might have a slight penalty as would naturalist, but herb lore may not. Herb lore is a more academic skill that would take into account the properties of a plant.
And here's where the wheels start to get shaky on the wagon.
Alchemy also deals with properties, both natural and magical. Further alchemy also deals with the application and preparation of substances including plants. Depending on the desired non-magical effect of a plant is how I determine a penalty, if any, when using alchemy in place of herb lore or herbery.
All things have energy. This is debatable using good old E=MC², but that takes us in the direction of a different set of weeds to get lost in.
Alchemy (and components for spells) are less concerned with the chemical and often physical properties of the plant and more interested in the properties or essences of a substance.
I don't have my books immediately at hand but there was a very good article written in pyramid dermatology IV or V about alchemical properties and combining them. I also suggest articles by S John Ross and Sean Punch on material components. (Search DuckDuckGo)

In summary, the point I'm trying to get at is that there is no easy way to write a one or two paragraph skill explanation that is going to cover all situations. At most we are going to get some guidelines to apply to our own campaigns and then as game masters we are going to have to make decisions with each instance those skills are applied

For example let us say Fred of the fighter guild has been bitten by a were rat. His buddy Randy, who is a ranger type in training, has the advantage of green thumb and a naturalist still but has no dedicated herbary, herbalore, or first aid (silly player). It's possible that Randy might no to look for and be able to find wolves bane and woundwort (assuming the right kind of terrain and climate) but will he know how to harvest them, prepare them, and apply them? Probably not unless he makes some very good default rolls.
It just so happens though that Alan The Alchemist is wandering by. Alan has herb lore, first aid, and alchemy skills. He's not as good as Randy in finding the needed plants but he should have a good chance of having the skills to know what plants are needed, how to prepare them, and how to apply them for treatment of the injuries. He might even know how to prepare them to offset any magical complications from the were rat bite.

Complications can be compounded in a fantasy setting, with varied levels of detail being used for 'reality', and mixing in other elements such as magical plants and spells, magic potions & alchemical potions interaction, and divine healing.
These levels of details may not be something that your group considers fun and you may not use any of that in your campaign or at your table. In my campaign we consider that flavor.

I hope my observations have been helpful.
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