Imperial Marines

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The skill lists in GURPS Special Ops really are this long. Anything meant to be performed in the field and under pressure is usually at skill 14+. If anything, I was conservative compared to the writeups there, most of which would come out to 500+ points in 4e.

I don't think any of the templates in Special Ops would come to more than 300 points in 4e. The most expensive template in the book is the US Navy SEAL at 200 points. With an additional 70 points for attributes (IQ & DX @ 14) and another 9 points to bring the 18 half-point skills up to one point each, you only get up to 279. That's without taking advantages of some of the more generous defaults in 4e (for instance, you only need one high level Guns skill to be competent with all guns) and things like talents and secondary characteristics which can be optimised to bring the points down a bit.

As for housekeeping, I'd say that keeping your quarters in order is part of the Soldier or Crewman skills.

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by Brett

40k Space Marines I don't know much about, but I think the answer is "no".

And I believe you're right with that. While the Imperial Space Marines in Warhammer 40.000 definitely are fanatics with fantastic training and many biological enhancements, already parts of the second paragraph of your answer show that there are huge differences between the Imperial Marines of your setting (which sounds very interesting, by the way) and the members of the Space Marine Orders of "WH 40K"(although it might be interesting how such a Marine would be translated into GURPS; but that would have to be done by somebody who really knows which crazy enhancements those people get):

Originally Posted by Brett

[...][Marines were trained from infancy] for utter dedication to the cause of preventing mass deaths. Further, suppose that its leash were being held by the General Assembly of the United Nations, except that the general run of countries was like the sample that get representatives on the Human Rights Commission.[...]

Imperial Space Marines in the Warhammer universe aren't specially trained to prevent mass deaths at all cost, in fact, they're trained to accept - and even cause - the annihilation of a whole planet's population if it "serves the Imperium" - whatever that might mean.
And while the Warhammer-Space Marines might nominally accept orders of the Imperial Senate as proposals on how to act, their ultimate loyalty belongs to the "undead" Imperator (who's not able to communicate in a clear way) and their ideal of the Imperium.
And human rights are, I believe, totally unknown in that universe...

M.

[Eltharon]

Originally Posted by Brett

-a whole bunch of stuff about Marines-
Is that sort of thing analogous to 40k Space Marines?

By 40k analogues, I simply meant "really really good sci-fi marines"--highly trained, biologically enhanced, top of the line equipment, powered armor, etc. Though your marines are much more believable then the head squishing, ass whooping, raised from birth, etc 40k SMs.

In terms of mission and temperament, I certainly hope that your marines are more...refined, so to speak. I wasn't suggesting your marines run around picking puppies like 40k ones do. Unless these puppies, of course, are violating human rights.

[Eltharon]

Originally Posted by Methariel

"(although it might be interesting how such a Marine would be translated into GURPS; but that would have to be done by somebody who really knows which crazy enhancements those people get):

It's been years since I've played Warhammer, but holy crap, that would be a high point character. They'd probably be at home in a lower point Supers campaign.

Now I'll stop derailing the thread with Warhammer references. Carry on, gents.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

As for housekeeping, I'd say that keeping your quarters in order is part of the Soldier or Crewman skills.

QFT if this isn't what Soldier is for, then I don't know what is.

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Sounds a lot like the Cadre in David Weber's Fury universe. Although the Empire there does have marines too, lots of them. The Cadre recruits from the marines...


Hans

Read that. Damn good stuff if you like characters that are well above "normal' in their abilities (which I do, by preference).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I don't think any of the templates in Special Ops would come to more than 300 points in 4e. The most expensive template in the book is the US Navy SEAL at 200 points. With an additional 70 points for attributes (IQ & DX @ 14) and another 9 points to bring the 18 half-point skills up to one point each, you only get up to 279. That's without taking advantages of some of the more generous defaults in 4e (for instance, you only need one high level Guns skill to be competent with all guns) and things like talents and secondary characteristics which can be optimised to bring the points down a bit.

A newly-minted SEAL in GURPS SEALS in Vietnam is 275 points, so you're right there. The 3e-4e shift was kinder to SEALS as regards point value inflation than for other groups which relied more on IQ and DX than ST and HT, though. But that's an aside.

It's possible to do the same thing for fewer points by having 14+ attributes and everyone having the same Talents designed around the template.

It's just not as realistic as a less optimised template that more precisely reflects the things they are good at and avoids making them good at stuff that they shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

As for housekeeping, I'd say that keeping your quarters in order is part of the Soldier or Crewman skills.

The basics are, certainly.

But as Brett said, the median Marine is a 25-year-veteran and these are people who learn quickly and take pride in doing everything they do well. I just don't find it unbelievable that they'd be good at keeping their gear looking good for parade (which Soldier does not necessarily cover), even if given short notice and a lack of cleaning supplies.

I can move Housekeeping to the optional skills, though.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But as Brett said, the median Marine is a 25-year-veteran and these are people who learn quickly and take pride in doing everything they do well.

Of course not every PC is going to be a 25 year vet especially in a party composed of 3 privates and a corporal. Isn't the point of your Template and Lens structure that the Template alone represents the raw boot?

I just don't find it unbelievable that they'd be good at keeping their gear looking good for parade (which Soldier does not necessarily cover), even if given short notice and a lack of cleaning supplies.

What's the difference between good for parade and good for inspection (which IME soldier does cover)?

I can move Housekeeping to the optional skills, though.

I think you should.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Of course not every PC is going to be a 25 year vet especially in a party composed of 3 privates and a corporal.

Many marines remain privates their whole careers. There's no up or out policy.

I assume PCs can be any service length they desire. The median is 25, but our fireteam could be composed of 42-years, 40-years, 15-years and 5-years, if desired.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Isn't the point of your Template and Lens structure that the Template alone represents the raw boot?

I hesitate to call a marine in the middle of his first rotation 'raw', but yes. This template is for someone who has finished his training, done a year of extra training with his regiment and then served between at least two years of his tour.

It's a 'mature' marine, but not an especially experienced one.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What's the difference between good for parade and good for inspection (which IME soldier does cover)?

The difference between Peninsular soldiers of the line regiments who are muddy and filthy, but have clean weapons; and their comrades in the Life Guards who have to turn out spotless.

I imagine somehow that it will be a point of pride with marines that they and their quarter are always spotless, no matter how hard this might prove to arrange.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think you should.

I have.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The difference between Peninsular soldiers of the line regiments who are muddy and filthy, but have clean weapons; and their comrades in the Life Guards who have to turn out spotless.

Isn't this simply the difference between field and garrison duties? I'd think Soldier should handle both.

EDIT: Why Shortsword?