Defending against an unseen attack

[Jotape]

My group of friends and I are having doubts about how to defend ourselves from certain attacks.

Example 1: An attack in which the attacker cannot be seen, shooting an arrow from a long distance. This attack comes from the front and is a "sneak attack". Is there a defense? If I have combat reflexes, would I be able to defend myself, or only if I am aware of the attacker, with the appropriate visibility penalties?

Example 2: Can a person with Blind Fighting defend themselves from someone who attacks from behind, with the appropriate visibility penalties? This question applies to both a ranged and melee attack

Because the book says that a stealthy ranged attack has no defense (I already understand why about firearms).
Just as it says that an attack from behind has no defense unless the character has some advantage that allows them to "feel the attack".

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Jotape

Example 1: An attack in which the attacker cannot be seen, shooting an arrow from a long distance. This attack comes from the front and is a "sneak attack". Is there a defense? If I have combat reflexes, would I be able to defend myself, or only if I am aware of the attacker, with the appropriate visibility penalties?

If you spot the arrow coming, you can try to dodge it. It's in plain sight, but it is quite small and coming fast. Bullets are generally assumed to be impossible to spot.

Originally Posted by Jotape

Example 2: Can a person with Blind Fighting defend themselves from someone who attacks from behind, with the appropriate visibility penalties? This question applies to both a ranged and melee attack.

Having Blind Fighting doesn't in itself allow you to become aware of an attack.

You can't see an arrow shot from behind you, and don't get an active defence. You might hear an attacker close enough behind you for a melee attack, which is why such attackers normally use Stealth.

[Refplace]

Yeah, the trick is is the defender aware of the attack.
You can hear the snap of the bow string and thus Dodge by moving if you are quick enough to realize what that noise likely means and make a really good Per roll to hear it.
Any deer bowhunter will tell you this is actually realistic.
Likewise you might catch the reflected light off a scope or movement of a sniper and get to make a Dodge.
Compare to a Danger Sense roll, then you have a psychic warning just in time but the principle is the same.
But if you do not know the attack is coming, especially out of combat where you might be moving evasively you get no Active Defense.

[Pursuivant]

Unless you're dealing with super-speed cinematic arrows, an arrow shot from anything other than point-blank range is going to take at least a fraction of a second to reach its target. Long-range arrows might take 3-5 seconds to ultimately reach their targets.

That means a Perception roll, possibly with modifiers for target Size/Speed and Darkness penalties should always be allowed to detect incoming low-tech missiles.

For characters with Combat Reflexes or Danger Sense, I'd skip the Perception roll and allow a Dodge roll for any incoming attack you could reasonably see coming. You just know something bad is about to happen and react instinctively.

More broadly, detecting an unseen attack = detecting an ambush. Depending on how generous the GM is feeling, they might allow a Quick Contest of Per or Observation skill vs. the attacker's Camouflage or Stealth skill to detect potential ambushers, with Range and Darkness penalties to the detector's skill rolls. Clairvoyance, Danger Sense, suitable Detect variants, Intuition, Precognition or just a Tactics skill roll might also reveal a ambush.

re: Blind Fighting.

I might allow Blind Fighting skill to detect foes behind you and to detect incoming attacks, but anyone will have major problems stopping attacks from the rear unless you've got the physical ability to defend to the rear. At the very least, I'd give a -2 or worse penalty to Dodge and make Block and Parry defenses impossible without a suitable Perk or Technique.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Jotape

Example 2: Can a person with Blind Fighting defend themselves from someone who attacks from behind, with the appropriate visibility penalties? This question applies to both a ranged and melee attack

Normal humans can't defend against attacks they cannot see. Normal humans cannot see anything behind them. Exceptional characters with 360 degree vision can see behind them and defend against attacks from behind.

Blind fighting lets you defend against attacks you cannot see, including attacks from behind. Technically, there's no explicit statement that Blind Fighting lets you do it, but I believe that's an oversight.

Normal humans can't move their arms behind them, and can't Block against those attacks (see Basic 391). They also have a -2 to Parry attempts. Exceptional characters with Double-Jointed or Extra Flexible arms can parry and block without penalty.

[King Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Jotape

My group of friends and I are having doubts about how to defend ourselves from certain attacks.

Example 1: An attack in which the attacker cannot be seen, shooting an arrow from a long distance. This attack comes from the front and is a "sneak attack". Is there a defense? If I have combat reflexes, would I be able to defend myself, or only if I am aware of the attacker, with the appropriate visibility penalties?

Example 2: Can a person with Blind Fighting defend themselves from someone who attacks from behind, with the appropriate visibility penalties? This question applies to both a ranged and melee attack

Because the book says that a stealthy ranged attack has no defense (I already understand why about firearms).
Just as it says that an attack from behind has no defense unless the character has some advantage that allows them to "feel the attack".

you aren't talking about roundabout attacks?

[Jotape]

Originally Posted by johndallman

If you spot the arrow coming, you can try to dodge it. It's in plain sight, but it is quite small and coming fast. Bullets are generally assumed to be impossible to spot.

Having Blind Fighting doesn't in itself allow you to become aware of an attack.

You can't see an arrow shot from behind you, and don't get an active defence. You might hear an attacker close enough behind you for a melee attack, which is why such attackers normally use Stealth.

And in hand-to-hand combat, I have an "aware" of an attack because of the Blind Fighting skill, does it make a difference if the attack comes from the back?

[Jotape]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Unless you're dealing with super-speed cinematic arrows, an arrow shot from anything other than point-blank range is going to take at least a fraction of a second to reach its target. Long-range arrows might take 3-5 seconds to ultimately reach their targets.

That means a Perception roll, possibly with modifiers for target Size/Speed and Darkness penalties should always be allowed to detect incoming low-tech missiles.

For characters with Combat Reflexes or Danger Sense, I'd skip the Perception roll and allow a Dodge roll for any incoming attack you could reasonably see coming. You just know something bad is about to happen and react instinctively.

More broadly, detecting an unseen attack = detecting an ambush. Depending on how generous the GM is feeling, they might allow a Quick Contest of Per or Observation skill vs. the attacker's Camouflage or Stealth skill to detect potential ambushers, with Range and Darkness penalties to the detector's skill rolls. Clairvoyance, Danger Sense, suitable Detect variants, Intuition, Precognition or just a Tactics skill roll might also reveal a ambush.

re: Blind Fighting.

I might allow Blind Fighting skill to detect foes behind you and to detect incoming attacks, but anyone will have major problems stopping attacks from the rear unless you've got the physical ability to defend to the rear. At the very least, I'd give a -2 or worse penalty to Dodge and make Block and Parry defenses impossible without a suitable Perk or Technique.

Your considerations about the ranged attack are interesting. I imagined very high penalties for the arrow.
After researching, I discovered that the average speed would be 90 m/s, which would be -10 on the speed and size table. You could consider -2 size modifier for the arrow... and those who have reflexes in combat would gain a +6 bonus on this vision test (only add the luminosity modifier if necessary).

Now, when it comes to blinding lights in meele combat, if after I have a successful dice roll I start to have a "sense" of the combat as if I were "seeing it", wouldn't it be plausible for me to be able to defend myself from an attack from behind (Considering the -4 modifier)?

[Jotape]

Originally Posted by King Leonidas

you aren't talking about roundabout attacks?

To tell you the truth, I've already cleared up my doubts about this, and the conclusion was that you would defend yourself as if the attack were from the flank, however, if your enemy continues the next turns of the combat behind you, then it would be like an attack from behind, that is, without active defense. Do you agree?
And here comes my doubt, with blinding fight I can defend myself from the attack from the back (considering the -4 modifier)

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Jotape

And in hand-to-hand combat, I have an "aware" of an attack because of the Blind Fighting skill, does it make a difference if the attack comes from the back?

Being unaware of an attack means you have no idea you're under attack at all. It's not merely being unable to see your attacker, or their specific blow. You don't know that there's a poison dart hidden among the oranges in the grocery store, or that there's a sniper in the office building down the street, so there's no reason to be Dodging like a maniac, or have your weapon ready to parry attacks from the oranges. (Fruit Ninjas are the obvious exception here...)

The only exceptions listed to the "can't defend to the rear" listed are Peripheral Vision (reducing the penalty to -2) and 360 Degree Vision (eliminating the penalty). Martial Arts has places to change this rule for Blind Fighting if that had been desired, but it did not.

Blind Fighting says:

Originally Posted by B180

This skill enables you to use senses other than vision – mainly hearing, but also touch and even smell – to pinpoint exactly where your opponents are. A successful roll allows one melee attack or active defense without any penalties for lighting (even total darkness), blindness (temporary or permanent),or an invisible foe.

Lighting, blindness, and invisibility does not include relative position on a tactical map. So, strictly by hyper-literal RAW, I'd have to say that no, Blind Fighting does not mitigate penalties for defending against side or rear attacks. Tactical position is not "lighting, blindness, or an invisible foe".

All that said, personally, I'd allow it, and houserule adding successful Blind Fighting rolls to the list of exceptions (Peripheral Vision, 360 Degree Vision). The intent for the cinematic skill (so cinematic it requires Trained By a Master) is to fighting "using senses other than vision". To me, it's not logical for defending against an attack from the rear to be even harder than defending against an attack from a straight-up invisible opponent.

Note that penalties and restrictions due to awkward tactical positioning and reach listed on B391, such as the prohibition for Parrying in the off-side hex or Blocking to the rear, are still applicable. Even with the appropriate vision Advantages, there's a -2 penalty for Parrying attacks from behind and prohibition on Blocking without some physical Advantages to make the motion possible. These penalties have nothing to do with awareness, vision, or, or "senses other than vision", and so Blind Fighting does not remove them. Successful Blind Fighting doesn't mean literally "no penalty against attacks from the rear" (a phrase which doesn't appear in the skill text at all), but "no penalty due to not being able to see your opponent well".