establishing a "client" for path/book magic

[Plane]

The 'client' term is defined on page 122 of GURPS Thaumatology.

It mostly seems to be important for T139's optional "Backlash: Instant Karma" rules (I think they were mandatory in the 3e Ritual Magic this was based on?)

Although it says "to protect the magician or his client" it actually sounds like only the client is at risk here, so maybe the former refers to the case when magician specifies themself as client?

This is super dangerous because there's no resistance roll as usual, so it seems like specifying someone as a client could be a roundabout way for a mage to target them and bypass their otherwise insurmountable Will/HT or whatever would normally impede success in targeting them.

T152 is especially notable because Doom can be automatically changed from subject to client at any time by the caster.

I'm assuming some kind of consent by a client is needed (otherwise this would be a crazy powerful way to bypass resistance) but to what degree must a client be INFORMED in establishing that consent to be valid?

1) do they need to know what path/book the ritual is being cast from?

2) do they need to know the specific effects of the ritual?

3) do they need to know who the target of the ritual is?

4) do they need to know that it might bounce back and effect them on a failure?

5) do they need to know that (like in case of Doom) even a non-failed ritual could be intentionally redirected at them?

6) does they need to know any other relevant approaches to solving their problem a caster could be holding back from them?

7) do they need to know the intent or trustworthiness or competence of the caster?

8) other relevant Qs you can think of?

Seems like a lot of potential considerations. Any holes could allow magicians to exploit unwary clients for ulterior motives and I'm wondering to what degree this could happen without upsetting requirements for establishing clients.

RPwise what kind of Reaction Rolls or Influence Skills would be needed to convince someone to be a client, to go along with a certain type of ritual, etc?

[AlexanderHowl]

I always have the client being the individual who benefits from a ritual.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I always have the client being the individual who benefits from a ritual.

True so far as it goes, but I think the question being asked is whether, when a potential client has asked a mage to cast a spell for him, the mage has to cast exactly the spell the client thought he was getting.

[finn]

That would be setting (and GM) dependent, but this is how I would rule.

In relation to backlash, the most important thing is that the client willfully requests the caster to harm the target.

If you didn't want to be cursed, you should not have wished ill of another person. That is enough "karma" or "gotcha" to waive your resistance roll. No knowledge of the ritual or belief in the magic/supernatural is required.

So, I say (3) is the only one necessary, but the request to harm has to be given willfully. The target would usually be specific, but maybe could be left to the caster to choose based on a description (like "one of the Smith sisters").

I would also say how much harm you wished could also count. If a ritual much graver than what you wished for was performed, I could see some or all of the backlash going to the caster instead of the client.

Also, a caster playing with the "client rule" is putting themselves in danger, as the spirits can always judge that the "client" was only a puppet and the caster is the true client. In cases where the caster tries to fail the ritual on purpose to harm the "client", the spirits could always judge that the "client" was the true target and the caster is the client, and the backlash of the failed ritual should fall on the caster.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by finn

Also, a caster playing with the "client rule" is putting themselves in danger, as the spirits can always judge that the "client" was only a puppet and the caster is the true client. In cases where the caster tries to fail the ritual on purpose to harm the "client", the spirits could always judge that the "client" was the true target and the caster is the client, and the backlash of the failed ritual should fall on the caster.

ah, but T122:

doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics.

..

either by manipulating reality directly or by invoking and binding or persuading spirits to perform the task

..

usually comes from the ambient environment or is provided by conjured spirits

T125

calls on any necessary powers or spirits

The largest distinction seems to be whether you can make "offerings". Stuff like "here have a tasty apple" shouldn't really work if you're not RPing with a spirit.

In terms of statting out "hey I 'm a spirit character who can aid with magic" I'm thinking that's probably creatures out there with the Visualization talent that was sorta baked into 3e's spirit templates.