A Question of Strength.

[Anthony]

Realistically, lifting skill is backwards: a success should allow you to lift your max, failure means you lift less than your max. This does mean high skill (which will usually succeed) is more consistent than lower skill, but that's actually pretty accurate.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, lifting skill is backwards: a success should allow you to lift your max, failure means you lift less than your max. This does mean high skill (which will usually succeed) is more consistent than lower skill, but that's actually pretty accurate.

Not quite sure what you mean, would you penalise your roll to get higher max lifts i.e. like the lifting with extra effort currently works.

Or do you mean literally with any amount of success you lift your max lift. If so what would the max be set at? Would it still be a function of ST and wouldn't it mean pretty much everyone with a ST* and skill of 16+ plus just pretty much always lift their maximum possible lift i.e. PB, at will as many times as they like for as long as they liked?

Personally while I agree high skill allows you consistently lift heaver weights than less skill (all else being equal). I disagree when it comes max lifts i.e. PB's. They IME more about everything going well, even if experienced lifter are also able to consistently lift better than less experienced lifters. Similarly as you gain more experience technique i.e 'skill' and get inherently stronger (it's often hard to separate the two at certain points in development) what you can consistently lift and your PBs both improve.



*Would you still base lifting off ST. If so wouldn't that mean a ST11 lifter with Skill +3 would be less able to consistently make their max lift than a ST14 lifter with skill +2, despite the latter having more skill? Maybe if you made the max lift based off ST plus skill (kind of like the trained ST idea)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I thought one of Usain's "issues" was that he wasn't as fast off the block as other Olympic sprinters. I also remember reading that he doesn't have the optimal proportions for sprinting. So that a future perfectly optimized and trained but still natural human could noticeably beat his records.
Of course I don't know if such improvements would rise to a full or even half level of Move or not.

Yep, by accepted wisdom he's the wrong shape (and yep he doesn't have the greatest start in the world because of this). But he is able to make it work because he can against exceptions bring up his stride rate despite that shape, and this with his stride length/force due to his shape and power is a winning combo.

I head the same about the best theoretical time, but currently it seems to be estimated at 9.27sec so 3/10ths faster than Bolt, I'm not sure if that is expressible within the GURPS Move granularity (even if it's a massive amount in terms of 100m sprinting!)


Interestingly the working involves maintianing Bolt's stride power/length and quickening the stride rate. But Bolt's stride rate in combinton with it's power/length is already the thing that confounds accepted sprinting wisdom.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Not quite sure what you mean, would you penalise your roll to get higher max lifts. Or do you mean literally with any amount of success you lift your max lift. If so what would the max be set at? Would it still be a function of ST

No. Lifting skill would be based on another attribute. Alternately, there could just be a skill or advantage that straight-up increases your ST for a particular class of action (basically lifting ST with a limitation) and doesn't get rolled at all.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No. Lifting skill would be based on another attribute. Alternately, there could just be a skill or advantage that straight-up increases your ST for a particular class of action (basically lifting ST with a limitation) and doesn't get rolled at all.

OK, but in the former what would you set Max lift at i.e. the amount you lift with a successful lift skill roll?

I do agree with your point about not basing skill off ST (ST is already in there with BL after all freeing taking other things into account). Personally I think EE/ST lifts based on a penalised roll to set a specific goal that you either succeed of fail at is better than the basic ST based roll to "see how much I can lift this time" roll. I think it's not only a better system in game, but a better approximation of RL.

The non skill roll attribute seems to suggest that the max lift is an automatic value So I guess you'd take your total relevant ST and calculate lifts off its relevant BL, (would you still allow for EE to have an effect).


All in all you seem to be removing lifting skill as both the qualifier and quantifier of ability in that it not only decides success or not but also has a direct impact on amount of ability.

Don't get me wrong there are questions about variability in how GURPS skills roll and how that variability equates to added effect with lifting compared to RL*. But I do think the core premise that increased skill in lifting will generally speaking increase the amount you can lift isn't wrong.

Ultimately though I think this is going to come down to how much of a roll we think technique has in lifting in RL (and TBF that can also be a matter of the specific lifts involved!)


Anyway as always an interesting subject that not only touches on the GURPS system and how it does stuff but also RL stuff as well!

Cheers

TD


*IMO those question can be somewhat mitigted by loking at skill & stat levels, but thst doesn't remove the questions.

[Tomsdad]

Just to reiterate I'm not saying the EE/Lift rules are a perfect representation here, GURPS is a RPG system and not a reality simulator and lifting weights isn't really an activity any RPG system generally needs to devote much time to.

Primarily FP's aren't very granular, so if I was going to have lifting really be part of a campaign I'd likely use the Last Gasp / AP system (and have individual lifts cost AP based on their relationship to ST & skill). The last gasp / AP System can still have granularity issues with lots of lower effort but not effortless actions but it's way more granular than the FP system without it. And ultimately how often am I really going to need to mechanically define long sets of reps in a RPG!?

But as a general concept I think the EE/Lift rules in Campaigns are in the right ball park.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A possible solution would be to have athletic skills replace attributes or secondary characteristics. For example, Lifting could replace Lifting ST and Running/2 could replace Basic Move.

If you transplanted the brain (and thus skill levels) of the world's best lifter into the body of a ninety pound wimp, how much could they lift in their new body?

Or if you used a chip to implant the skill into the wimp, how much could they lift?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

OK, but in the former what would you set Max lift at i.e. the amount you lift with a successful lift skill roll?

That would require a little bit of research and would depend on the type of lift being attempted.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

All in all you seem to be removing lifting skill as both the qualifier and quantifier of ability in that it not only decides success or not but also has a direct impact on amount of ability.

The actual skill for lifting is making sure that you correctly execute the lift in a way that maximizes your available strength, it does not allow you do use strength that you don't have. Having more muscles isn't skill, it's just limited ST.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

If you transplanted the brain (and thus skill levels) of the world's best lifter into the body of a ninety pound wimp, how much could they lift in their new body?

Or if you used a chip to implant the skill into the wimp, how much could they lift?

Muscle memory plays a part in physical skills as much as brain memory, and there does not seem to be much evidence of medium independence for intelligence, so the physical structure of the brains seems to be important. The idea that we can transfer skills is probably cinematic at best and fantastic at worst, but it is RAW. The idea that IQ, Per, and Will are transferable is likewise cinematic at best and fantastic at worst, but it is RAW. When it comes to transferring Lifting, the effects are probably no more unrealistic than transferring Jumping or Wrestling.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Muscle memory plays a part in physical skills as much as brain memory

Do you think muscle memory refers to the training of the muscles rather than of the brain? That's not what it means. It refers to how the brain learns to use its muscles. It would be retained were the brain transplanted into a new body.

How much someone can lift is determined by the physical structures of their muscles. Their skills (which are improvements made in the brain's ability to perform tasks) don't affect those structures of the muscles.

Think about it like the computer in a car. No matter how much better the computer is you put in the car, there will still be physical limits on the car's top speed. The computer cannot increase the top speed beyond those physical limits.