A Question of Strength.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by PaladinV

Wow, I haven't gotten as far as to look at the move rules beyond figuring basic movement. That's crazy. I guess within the confines of the system they work okay, for chases and what not?

The movement rules are internally consistant. They will just sometimes produce odd results by Real World standards. They will produce those results consistantly and predictably once you know what to expext though.

A particularly odd result is related to running at full speed. An average Gurps character is Move 5 and has 10 FP but he will have to slow to half speed after he's lost more than 2/3rds his FP or on the 7th one gone in his case.

Moving at full speed requires a HT roll every 15 seconds and with HT 10 he'll fail half of those rolls on average. 3 minutes means 12 rolls and an average of 6 failures. so whatever "sprinting" means in Gurps it's something an average man can do for more than 3 minutes.

If that average man got his Move up to 6.25 and his FP up to 12 he could run a sub 4 minute mile.

[AlexanderHowl]

Sprinting is a bit odd in GURPS. Even a realistic character with DX 10 and HT 10 can purchase Basic Speed 7.00 and Basic Move 10 for only 55 CP. The individual is capable of sprinting at 12 yards per second, meaning that they can run a 100-meter in 9.2 seconds or run a mile in less than two and a half minutes.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Sprinting is a bit odd in GURPS. Even a realistic character with DX 10 and HT 10 can purchase Basic Speed 7.00 and Basic Move 10 for only 55 CP. The individual is capable of sprinting at 12 yards per second, meaning that they can run a 100-meter in 9.2 seconds or run a mile in less than two and a half minutes.

I would take that as a sign that that combination of options is not realistic. +30% is the absolute limit of what might be considered realistic. That adding +30% to something that already has +30% breaks suspension isn't that shocking.

[JazzJedi]

I was a huge fan of the TSR Top Secret RPG, and in the Top Secret Companion book they have an "Athletic Feat Limits" section where your character had a "Fitness Rating" - Weak (0.15), Average (0.425), Strong (0.65), Super (0.875). You could calculate your character's real world athletic feats by multiplying the world record by this factor. I thought that was simple and effective.

In GURPS, I use the same basic mechanism, and I set the "world record" level to be skill level 20. So if you have Lifting-20, then you can match the world record for your body weight. If you have Running-20, you can match the world record for sprinting, and so forth. For other skill levels, just multiply the world record by your (Skill/20).

[Flyndaran]

Lifting is a cinematic skill as it works in Gurps, IMO. Technique improves effective lifts some, but no way in Hades can it allow you to lift twice what you could unskilled. Then again extra effort allows unrealistic effects too.
But this is a game of larger than life characters even in an otherwise non-cinematic setting.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Lifting is a cinematic skill as it works in Gurps, IMO. Technique improves effective lifts some, but no way in Hades can it allow you to lift twice what you could unskilled.

Without spending FP +100% lift only arrives reliably at HT-based Lifting 36. If you do spend FP you can do it at Will-based Lifting Skill 26.

Many unrealistic things occur at Skill levels of 26 to 36.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Without spending FP +100% lift only arrives reliably at HT-based Lifting 36. If you do spend FP you can do it at Will-based Lifting Skill 26.

Yeah, but the level of variance is generally much too high. Max lift is slightly variable, but only by a few percent.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yeah, but the level of variance is generally much too high. Max lift is slightly variable, but only by a few percent.

Yup, that is the problem with RAW lifting. I devised a way to fix it, using the Trained ST concept from Technical Grappling but it made no lasting impact.

[Anthony]

What would actually help is a 'controlled conditions' modifier that dramatically reduces the variance of die rolls; most things don't actually have intrinsic variance at the levels RPGs assign them, it's just that there are lots of environmental modifiers that would be a hassle to track directly so we just add randomness.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I would take that as a sign that that combination of options is not realistic. +30% is the absolute limit of what might be considered realistic. That adding +30% to something that already has +30% breaks suspension isn't that shocking.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Sprinting is a bit odd in GURPS. Even a realistic character with DX 10 and HT 10 can purchase Basic Speed 7.00 and Basic Move 10 for only 55 CP. The individual is capable of sprinting at 12 yards per second, meaning that they can run a 100-meter in 9.2 seconds or run a mile in less than two and a half minutes.

4e added the ability to just "buy" Speed and Move.

The movement system was created when Move was DX + HT / 4, and DX and HT got more expensive the more you got.

So Move 10 probably meant something like DX 16 HT 16 (Speed 8.0) plus Running 16, which before 4e's reductions to DX and HT and skill costs would cost 164 for the attributes as a starting character (more to build up to during play from lower stats). 150 points in 3e is "full-fledged hero" and 200 is "truly outstanding".

Hmm, maybe more likely DX 13 HT 16 (Speed 7.25) with Running +6 (48 points) - still 138 points.

Part of why I prefer pre-4e costs for things is that I like it to be harder and more expensive to become super-human. I don't want an attempt at "balance" as much as I want representations of where the normal human limits are, etc.