Hiking + FP rules clarification needed

[FeiLin]

I'm slightly unsure about Hiking. When and how much FP does Hiking (or equivalent) cost???

B351 says "[...] the heavier your load and the worse the traveling conditions, the more slowly you walk and the more frequently you stop to rest" (indicating you just rest as soon as you suffer FP losses and ending up with none lost). Although, it also says "Should you interrupt your travels for adventuring matters, you will be missing FP when you stop". So I interpret that as meaning normally you don't lose FP (since it seems to imply you ONLY lose when you're interrupted).

B357 says "Make one extra-effort roll per day. Extra effort increases the FP you suffer by two when you stop on the march." That's a bit unambiguous, but I'd interpret it as you pay when you stop for any other reason other than resting to move towards the destination.

B426 says "Use the FP costs for fighting a battle, but asses them per hour of road travel; e.g., one hour of marching with light encumbrance costs 2 FP (3 on a hot day)." That makes me think if I walk for four hours, I would end up with 8 FP lost (12 on a hot day). But then it also says "If the party enters combat while on the march, assume they've been walking for an hour, unless events dictate otherwise, and assess fatigue accordingly." Ok, that REALLY made me confused: does that mean if actual travel time exceeds 1h, does that mean that the number of hours traveled is the multiplier for the FP lost?

Also, how many hours does "a day of travel" mean? B426 says "The average human can function for a 16-hour day." Does that mean that the average human (Move 5) can move 50 miles/day, aka 3.125 miles/h? With Good terrain (B351) that means 3.125 x 1.250 ≈ 3.9 miles/h, which imo seems a bit toward the high end (for the average human), but I guess that might be the world we live in that skews my perception of what's "average".

So, to elaborate on the initial question:
1. Do I pay FP even when I use no skills and "just walk" (without being interrupted)?
2. Do I pay FP when I use the Hiking (or equivalent) skill (without being interrupted), either just for the +20% or with extra-effort?
3. If FP is paid (without interruption), is that per hour of actual travel or how?
4. In the cases where I do suffer FP losses from "interruption", is the calculation per hour of actual travel or basically always assumed 1 h?
5. Is the assumption 16 hours per day or how many?

It seems a bit strange that most people would be half-dead if they had to fight just before they reached the end of their journey after 16 hours of travel, especially with loads or extra effort... I may have missed something in the book, of course, so please let me know, in that case.

[evileeyore]

Firstly, it's been acknowledged that the Basic Campaigns rules on Hiking are a tad unrealistic. High Tech corrects this. High Tech assess FP costs and Movement rate per hour and leaves it the the PCs to determine how long they travel without taking rest breaks.

Secondly, Basic assumes a 16 hour travel time (that's 16 hours of preparing to march, marching, resting, marching, etc, and then breaking for camp) leaving the minimal 8 hours for rest and nothing else.

Originally Posted by FeiLin

So I interpret that as meaning normally you don't lose FP (since it seems to imply you ONLY lose when you're interrupted).

Correct. If using Basic, the PCs will be tired, but not necessarily Fatigued at the end of a march.

I also presume that the PCs are down FP at a march's end as though they'd been marching without rest for 1 hour (if for some reason it matters).

B357 says "Make one extra-effort roll per day. Extra effort increases the FP you suffer by two when you stop on the march." That's a bit unambiguous, but I'd interpret it as you pay when you stop for any other reason other than resting to move towards the destination.

I also charge it at the end of the march.

B426 says "Use the FP costs for fighting a battle, but asses them per hour of road travel; e.g., one hour of marching with light encumbrance costs 2 FP (3 on a hot day)." That makes me think if I walk for four hours, I would end up with 8 FP lost (12 on a hot day). But then it also says "If the party enters combat while on the march, assume they've been walking for an hour, unless events dictate otherwise, and assess fatigue accordingly." Ok, that REALLY made me confused: does that mean if actual travel time exceeds 1h, does that mean that the number of hours traveled is the multiplier for the FP lost?

Basic Campaigns presumes the party is taking a rest roughly once an hour. Enough that they're only down an hour's march worth of FP at any given moment.

1. Do I pay FP even when I use no skills and "just walk" (without being interrupted)?

Yes. If you're only using Basic rules, then it's only when interrupted on the journey.

2. Do I pay FP when I use the Hiking (or equivalent) skill (without being interrupted), either just for the +20% or with extra-effort?

FP is unaffected by the Hiking skill, only distance traveled is affected.

3. If FP is paid (without interruption), is that per hour of actual travel or how?

If using Basic rules, FP is loss only occurs on stops without a rest.

In other words, the PCs didn't have time to rest before having to deal with a problem.

4. In the cases where I do suffer FP losses from "interruption", is the calculation per hour of actual travel or basically always assumed 1 h?

Always assumed to be 1 hour.

5. Is the assumption 16 hours per day or how many?

Yes, a hard 16 hour march (with rest breaks).

I may have missed something in the book, of course, so please let me know, in that case.

Mostly you're missing High Tech, the Basic Skill thread*, several years (over a decade) worth of discussions in these forums‡, and the uFAQ†.


* Thank you johndallman.

† Thank you vicky_molokh.

‡ Thank you forum search tool...

2004 - Hiking
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=1175
2004 - Overland Hiking
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=2265
2007 - Hiking speed, the last thread ?
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=34675
2007 - About hiking speed
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=28898
2008 - Pre-Industrial Hiking speeds
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=45299
2011 - Overland travel speeds
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=78330
2011 - Fatigue from Hiking, how to handle long term?
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=79813
2012 - Walking and Hiking Distance
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=97042
2014 - Hiking Fatigue Costs - more detail?
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=123427
2014 - The mathematics of Hiking
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=124289
2016 [High-Tech] Hiking Rules clarification
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=146924
2017 - Hiking: Further, yes, but also faster?
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=147928
2017 - Hiking and movement per day seems wrong
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=148656


Some other threads you might enjoy:
2017 - Exploration movement and "normal walking pace"
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=148012
2017 - Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153258
2014 - Hiking and Fit/Very Fit
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=126589
2014 - [Basic] Skill of the week: Breath Control
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=129427

[FeiLin]

Wow, thanks for the super awesome answer!

I used the High-Tech and modified it slightly. 0.8 x Move in mph ≈ 1.28 x Move in km/h (I use metric). I approximated that to 1.25 x Move, and then changed the standard to Good instead of Average, so km/h is Move, Good terrain x1, Average x0.8, Bad x0.6 and Very Bad x0.25.

With that calculation, I made a quick spreadsheet, and calculated speed with the assumption of travel for an hour and then rest back the FPs lost at 10 min/FP (so not including the decent meal option on B427). I start out with Move 5, and ran through encumbrance 0-4 (where encumbrance also modifies Move itself as per B17), and added the heat option (+ armor). Then assuming that maximum is 16 hours (hey, a one hour walk before breakfast can only be good for the appetite, right?), I got the following average speeds over a day.

Move 5, no heat penalty, has an average speed [km/h] of (in rising order of encumbrance, 0-4):
4.3
3.1
2.1
1.3
0.6
Move 7 gives:
6.1
4.3
2.9
1.8
0.8
Random example; Move 5 with medium encumbrance, heat and armor (+2 FP) gives:
1.7

Those are rates I can live with, especially since they're the max (since I changed the terrain base rates when I converted to km/h). The last issues I have are how to deal with Hiking rolls and extra-effort, and more specifically, how often to roll and if they need fine-tuning. I scanned all the threads linked above and a few more, but I couldn't find anything explicit for this with the High-Tech rules.

I read somewhere that Hiking for +20% is a bit arbitrary, and suggested Hiking+4 - 1 per 5% bonus is better. I was thinking something along the lines of that, maybe Hiking - 2 per 20% and 1 FP per 20% and hour (I'm not sure about +4, but the resolution of 5% in this context might be unnecessary and scaling it up to 20% seemed necessary to balance). Just roll once per day, and then keep the bonus even if the actual hiking is interspersed with rests (which now become longer, mind, to get rid of the increase).

I tried it in my "Hiking calculator", and it seems to give at least a few % higher average speed for every effort of 20% (never went backwards, at least, which it did for 10%), even though it's more powerful when encumbrance and other FP loss is high. I'm not entirely sure how to weigh this against the risk of critical failure, though.

Anyone have any ideas for balancing and making extra-effort "fair" with these rules above?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by FeiLin

Wow, thanks for the super awesome answer!

No problem. I figure this way you can skim those threads for any further ideas.

I used the High-Tech and modified it slightly.

I am not checking your math. I'll leave for someone more math inclined to comment on.

The last issues I have are how to deal with Hiking rolls and extra-effort, and more specifically, how often to roll and if they need fine-tuning.

Something I like is the way DFRPG deals with it. Just roll and modify speed based on the MoS x 5% (Margin of Success).

So if they use Extra Effort, they just spend the FP and make a Will roll. I do the same for Hiking. It makes higher Hiking skill have a greater value (I do cap it at +25% for Hiking).