Ziusudra / Nyx questions

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It does make them more alien, but it also puts them on the same rung of the PSR ladder in the oldschool human eyes, removing the slippery slope of sapience recognition.

That's really not a problem; the treatment of bioroids in canon THS makes absolutely no sense.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's really not a problem; the treatment of bioroids in canon THS makes absolutely no sense.

It doesn't make sense if you ignore the context in which such treatment originates. Notably:

• that a bioroid costs around $60k-$150k depending on how cool it is;
• that an equivalent AI is at least $100k for the infomorph alone (assuming a mediocre IQ10), plus the computer (C8, so $50k+) and the shell (varies, but about $145k+ for a cyberdoll);
• that bioroids are human-like enough that people who want 'a human touch' will accept a bioroid as a suitable substitute;
  [i]that bioroids are sufficiently inhuman that they are not automatically taken under the umbrella of human rights, and instead occupy a tier somewhere between uplifts and SAIs (i.e. more squishy than a SAI, but smarter than an uplift, and yet not human in origin nor in DNA);
• that bioroids come off the shelf with an equivalent of a university degree / similar training (equal to five years actually well spent on earnest studying), but without the more human manner of wasting time on learning Carousing, Hobby Skills etc., which indeed produces the ideal-citizen-or-clueless-workaholic that is explicitly mentioned in TS;
• that AI owners are unlikely to have their SAIs run in bioshells (both for reasons of needing a C8 computer, and out of less rational reasons);
• that bioroids as a 'free' (as in, one not receiving a salary) workforce 'compete' with SAIs, not LAIs, in jobs where a LAI will not do.

If you change one or more of those nuances of the setting, they become less appropriate. But if you remove the front glass from a car, then rant that the wind interferes with driving . . .

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It doesn't make sense if you ignore the context in which such treatment originates.
<snip>
[i]that bioroids are sufficiently inhuman that they are not automatically taken under the umbrella of human rights, and instead occupy a tier somewhere between uplifts and SAIs

That's the problem. Bioroids, as written, are not sufficiently inhuman.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's the problem. Bioroids, as written, are not sufficiently inhuman.

In that case gorillas are not sufficiently inhuman either.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In that case gorillas are not sufficiently inhuman either.

Bioroids are much more humanlike than gorillas, even if they way they're manufactured is quite different.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Bioroids are much more humanlike than gorillas, even if they way they're manufactured is quite different.

Made of synthetic DNA. Chimerical. Having an experience of growing up nothing like the human one. With nanofactories and other non-biological bits and pieces here and there. They're a different species, and not even a fully biological one.

Sure, they're sapient (IQ6+) and lack Slave Mentality, but that also applies to SAIs, LAIs, astropodes, neocoons, space cats, war dops, Shadows, Fragments, and Eidolons.

So if someone plays the sapience argument, it applies to many things other than bioroids, and if someone plays the similarity argument, then a bioroid is less human than a Jagrilla Hound or a Shadow.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So if someone plays the sapience argument, it applies to many things other than bioroids, and if someone plays the similarity argument, then a bioroid is less human than a Jagrilla Hound or a Shadow.

People don't play either card in general. They go with "It seems human". It's somewhat irrational that it matters that the sapience is contained in a humanlike body, but in fact it does matter. It's very difficult to justify bioroids at all, it requires a dramatic change in ethics standards over a rather short time period, and really the only way of doing it is to make them extremely inhuman.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

People don't play either card in general. They go with "It seems human". It's somewhat irrational that it matters that the sapience is contained in a humanlike body, but in fact it does matter. It's very difficult to justify bioroids at all, it requires a dramatic change in ethics standards over a rather short time period, and really the only way of doing it is to make them extremely inhuman.

*Shrug*. People are good at justifying stuff. If the government of one of the most liberty- and human rights-loving states managed to justify torture without starting a civil war, I don't see people justifying slavery as all that implausible, particularly when there are ready-made excuses such as the fact that these are biological robots assembled, not born.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

*Shrug*. People are good at justifying stuff.

True, but I think this may be an issue of cultural perspectives -- bioroids hit a lot of political sensitive topics, such that the most likely result the US is either a bioroid status of X or something very similar to the EU (bioroid manufacture is illegal, bioroids have full rights).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Same reason why mommy and/or daddy would legally adopt a SAI. Because it is better than a baseline human, and more suited to growing up in the fast-moving world of 2100.

If that's all they care about, then why don't they just adopt an SAI, or even just ensure that their Ghosts inherit their estate? I imagine that the person who pays to carry a fetus with a tailored Ziusudra genome does so because they want to raise a perfect child, (preferably with as much of their DNA as possible within the design specs) not because they want to ensure that some random unrelated (and unrelatable) robot is personally successful in today's changing world. People are instinctively driven to reproduce by giving birth to human babies that they raise as children until they become adults. People want to throw baseballs in the backyard, and attend piano recitals. They want someone to recapitulate the experiences of their own childhoods now fondly remembered with nostalgia. Parents often feel that their children "grow up too fast" already! The notion of a four or nine year childhood isn't going to have much appeal to people that want to experience parenthood!