Human max for secondary attributes? (Per, will, FP)

[NineDaysDead]

RAW:

Originally Posted by Basic Set Page 345

You may not attempt a success roll if your effective skill is less than 3, unless you are attempting a defense roll (p. 374).

Originally Posted by Basic Set Page 347

A roll of 3 or 4 is always a critical success.

Therefore someone with a sense score of 10 can succeed (on a 3-4) if the sum total of all modifiers is -7, (or less), as it is within the resolution of his sense, but cannot succeed if the sum total of all modifiers is -8 or more, as that is outside the resolution of his sense.

Suggested house rule:
Apply all modifiers (positive and negative) normally and roll normally, except if the sum total of all modifiers is -8 or more, in which case you cannot attempt the sense roll.
If you have a relevant Acute Sense add that to the allowed penalty, so that becomes:

Acute Sense/Maximum penalty allowed
+0/-7
+1/-8
+2/-9
+3/-10
+4/-11
+5/-12
+6/-13
+7/-14
+8/-15
+9/-16
+10/-17
Etc

The bonus from Discriminatory senses applies here.

Microscopic Vision negates up to -6 penalty for small size.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Tactical Shooting's max of 2 is based on 20/12, not 20/10).

Then wouldn't it have been more realistic to say the maximum human Vision score is 12 instead of saying a maximum +2 to Acute Vision?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Then wouldn't it have been more realistic to say the maximum human Vision score is 12 instead of saying a maximum +2 to Acute Vision?

"Vision score" is not an Attribute or other technical term in Gurps. Perception is and so is Acute Vision.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Then wouldn't it have been more realistic to say the maximum human Vision score is 12 instead of saying a maximum +2 to Acute Vision?

Which would amount to forcing anyone with IQ13+ to take a Disadvantage of either reduced perception or Bad Sight. That's an ugly way to write things up.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Vision score" is not an Attribute or other technical term in Gurps. Perception is and so is Acute Vision.

In practice, I tell my players to make vision rolls all the time. Maybe I'm unusual in that?

On their character sheets there are places for them to provide their perception, vision, hearing, taste/smell, and touch. If I'm not to refer to that vision number as their vision score, what should I refer to it as?

Getting back to the original point of this thread, my thinking is that it's probably more realistic to set actual caps on these secondary attributes as opposed to setting caps on the plus or minus modifications that result in them. I agree, Vicky, that in practice this will be difficult to implement.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

In practice, I tell my players to make vision rolls all the time. Maybe I'm unusual in that?

Well there's a school of thought that the GM should make the sense rolls for the PCs.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Getting back to the original point of this thread, my thinking is that it's probably more realistic to set actual caps on these secondary attributes as opposed to setting caps on the plus or minus modifications that result in them.

What's wrong with the system I suggested?

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

What's wrong with the system I suggested?

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it's more complicated than I personally want to deal with. I'd rather just set maximum values.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Then wouldn't it have been more realistic to say the maximum human Vision score is 12 instead of saying a maximum +2 to Acute Vision?

The problem in this case would be that (as long as everything is done in only one roll), realistic humans would have very low chance to notice very tiny detail.

As I tried to explain it, the problem of a vision (Per + Acute Vision), hearing (Perception + Acute hearing), etc., roll is not only the limit of what the character can or cannot see, hear or whatever else. It is also: is the character vigilant enough, is he distracted by something else? We sometimes don't notice something which is just under our eyes and still perfectly visible, even for someone who has a very bad sight.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it's more complicated than I personally want to deal with. I'd rather just set maximum values.

How is it complicated? You're checking one number that you already have to check anyway. It doesn't require any real addition or subtraction, just noting if one number is bigger than another number.


RAW:
Sum all positive and negative modifiers together.
Note this number.
Apply this number to your sense roll.
Roll dice under your now modified sense roll.
If successful you sensed whatever.

My system:
Sum all positive and negative modifiers together.
Note this number. (If -8 or worse, you can't sense it, don't bother rolling).
Apply this number to your sense roll.
Roll dice under your now modified sense roll.
If successful you sensed whatever.


Generally Acute senses aren't going to change very much in game, so if you have PER 10 and Acute Vision 2 and Acute Hearing 4, you just note:



Sense (Maximum Penalty)



Vision 12 (-9)
Hearing 14 (-11)
Touch 10 (-7)
Taste/smell 10 (-7)


If you have PER 20 and no Acute senses, you just note:


Vision 20 (-7)
Hearing 20 (-7)
Touch 20 (-7)
Taste/smell 20 (-7)

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem in this case would be that (as long as everything is done in only one roll), realistic humans would have very low chance to notice very tiny detail.

As I tried to explain it, the problem of a vision (Per + Acute Vision), hearing (Perception + Acute hearing), etc., roll is not only the limit of what the character can or cannot see, hear or whatever else. It is also: is the character vigilant enough, is he distracted by something else? We sometimes don't notice something which is just under our eyes and still perfectly visible, even for someone who has a very bad sight.

Do you see any problems with the system I proposed?