Very Fit and Spell Fatigue

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

I think keeping track of separate things of "this is FP I lost by running", "this is FP I lost by casting a spell", "this is FP I lost because someone shot me with a tranquilizer", etc. is more work than it's worth. It's like making each individual wound recover HP at different rates or from different things.

It's a trivial amount of work, really, and anyone with Very Fit would be glad to do it if it meant they'd recover some portion of their FP faster.

Look, if you have FP lost due to spells, FP spent from an energy reserve, and FP lost due to exertion, you already need to track three fatigue recovery rates. I've yet to see a play with a problem with this. In my experience, which admittedly is limited to the same smallish pool of players, is that tracking which FP went to what amounts to no difficulty at all.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Kesendeja

How about a version of fit and very fit that worked only for spellcasting drain?

Some version of "Fit" may or may not be appropriate for ER, as ER already recovers independently from FP and is also affected by Recover Energy's time reduction. Adding bonus recovery time beyond Recover Energy gets a bit problematic.

A version of "Very Fit" certainly is not appropriate for ER, as it's sole effect would be basically "double your effective ER" - the most appropriate method of gaining that effect would be to actually, you know, double the level of ER. The +2 HT would have no effect on ER, and halved recovery time is already subsumed in "Fit."

So, really, if you want your ER to recover faster just buy Recover Energy up to skill-15 or skill-20. If you really want you can take One-Spell Magery and the Charm perk to bypass Recover Energy's prerequisites and pump it's level up to a high enough level.
Magery 5 or 10 (Recover Energy Only, -80%) [10 or 20]
Recover Energy IQ+0* [4]
Charm (Recover Energy) [1]
That's [15] or [25] points for RE-15 or RE-20 assuming IQ 10+. It has a prerequisite of Magery 0 or higher, and becomes cheaper if you have IQ and/or Magery above the minimum, and reduces recovery time to 1FP and 1ER per 5min for [15] or 2 min for [25] (Recover Energy affects both).

[Otaku]

I am a bit puzzled by the differentiation as well. Note I don't have the RAW in front of me and likely won't for quite some time, so if I am mixing things up a bit, just tell me. >_< I also won't be trying to override the RAW for anything. I am just trying to "understand".

FP loss can be due to different things and thus recovers separately... but in those cases is the actual recovery process via the same mechanism? That is where the confusion lies. Isn't Fit/Very Fit supposed to represent improved cardiovascular health? I can't see that reducing the expenditure of FP to fuel things that don't rely on your cardiovascular system, like how I understand default magic.

When it comes to recovery, though... why wouldn't it? Your recover FP faster because of your improved cardiovascular health. After all, don't you recover the FP through rest, implying it is a matter of your body "replenishing" its own energy for exertion?

Perhaps this is unrelated, but if I have Rapid Healing or Very Rapid Healing and I use HP to fuel a spell, do I not get the bonuses relevant to those advantages for healing that lost HP?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Otaku

FP loss can be due to different things and thus recovers separately... but in those cases is the actual recovery process via the same mechanism? That is where the confusion lies. Isn't Fit/Very Fit supposed to represent improved cardiovascular health? I can't see that reducing the expenditure of FP to fuel things that don't rely on your cardiovascular system, like how I understand default magic.

It's clearly just meant to avoid pushing players to produce wizards who are paragons of cardiovascular health because that would seem bizarre and make a niggling little irritation in the mind of anyone who designed their character for something other than point efficiency.

The introduction of ER solves the problem, IMO. If you use ER its fine to let Very Fit improve recovery of FP spent on spells.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

A version of "Very Fit" certainly is not appropriate for ER, as it's sole effect would be basically "double your effective ER" - the most appropriate method of gaining that effect would be to actually, you know, double the level of ER. The +2 HT would have no effect on ER, and halved recovery time is already subsumed in "Fit."
).

I agree that Very Fit for spellls is wrong but one of the reasons it's wrong is that the mechcnics don't even fit as well as you've just laid out.

Very Fir isn't "lose half as many FP". It's "lose FP for expenditures over time half as often". VH has never affect FP loss for extra Effort or any other instant l0oss. It doesn't affect specified amounts of FP loss ei9ther. It simply doubles the time period for how often you _roll_ to lose FP to long-term effort.

Even if VF did affect spells it couldn't even multiply how often you have to pay maintenance because you don't roll for FP loss in that situation. Instead an automatic quantity of lost FP is specified.

Mechanically you could recover spell FP loss twice as fast if the HM decided on a basic principle of "an FP is an FP". but VF just isn't related to the question.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Mechanically you could recover spell FP loss twice as fast if the HM decided on a basic principle of "an FP is an FP". but VF just isn't related to the question.

Not sure I am following your statement. Here is a quick question: "Fit" and "Very Fit" in 3e (as I don't have the 4e rules to reference anymore) both caused FP to be recovered twice as fast, but with the provision it was only due to loss due to "exertion, heat, etc." I've never been sure what exactly that applies to; reading it at its broadest (note: a line specifies about FP lost to power spells and such) that might even mean lost FP is recovered twice as fast for things like illness, making up lost sleep, starvation, etc. provided the proper remedy is also applied.

Obviously it isn't like I can reality check how quickly a Fit or Very Fit mage recovers FP. What I can ask myself is "How does the increased recovery from exertion work?" According to RAW it is all due to improved cardiovascular health. It makes sense then that unless Magic is somehow tied into that, the other part of the effect (decreased fatiguing) isn't affected.

I would think that improved fitness due to better-than-HT-indicates cardiovascular health, as that ties directly into how your body handles making nutrition available to your cells (as well as removing harmful waste from said cells), would always improve recovery from the loss of FP barring situations where the nature of the loss inhibits recovery until certain conditions are met, but after those conditions are met again it seems like it would logically kick in.

Addendum: To those concerned that this would create a bunch of Fit/Very Fit mages for their campaign worlds, that would strike me as a separate issue to tackle. For one... why is that a problem? Maybe some of the classical examples of wizards just weren't given due credit (it wasn't spells extending life, it was that they were Fit or Very Fit on top of having Longevity!) or maybe it is one of the oversights seen in writing fiction - in the real world, a mage that wasn't in good shape would probably only last so long anyway, magic or no. Just like with most traditional adventuring professions.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Obviously it isn't like I can reality check how quickly a Fit or Very Fit mage recovers FP. What I can ask myself is "How does the increased recovery from exertion work?" According to RAW it is all due to improved cardiovascular health. It makes sense then that unless Magic is somehow tied into that, the other part of the effect (decreased fatiguing) isn't affected.

The other way to look at it is "How does physical fitness effect recovery from magical exertion in this setting?"

Originally Posted by Otaku

Addendum: To those concerned that this would create a bunch of Fit/Very Fit mages for their campaign worlds, that would strike me as a separate issue to tackle. For one... why is that a problem? It wouldn't be the first time conventional fiction didn't apply logical consequences to the fantastic; perhaps if magic were real it would and should require a person with a disciplined mind and body, not just one or the other.

Because when you say "we're playing a fantasy campaign" and people come in with a character concept that makes perfect sense its poor planning to make them feel stupid for sticking to that concept. Lots of fantasy settings allow for powerful wizards who are old and not in tremendous physical condition.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by lexington

The other way to look at it is "How does physical fitness effect recovery from magical exertion in this setting?"

I apparently failed my IQ roll, because I don't see where you're going with that. If I don't know how/why Fit and Very Fit are meant to work in the first place, how can I understand how/why exertion from fueling effects like magic are supposed to work differently?

Originally Posted by lexington

Because when you say "we're playing a fantasy campaign" and people come in with a character concept that makes perfect sense its poor planning to make them feel stupid for sticking to that concept. Lots of fantasy settings allow for powerful wizards who are old and not in tremendous physical condition.

Again, not following you.

One of the objections made against Fit/Very Fit helping to recover FP lost to exertion used to fuel effects like magic, psi, super powers, etc. is the fear that it will lead to players regularly designing such characters with that Advantage. That isn't really a good reason; often times characters aren't optimized - the system shouldn't be such that to make someone "feel good" about playing a specific character concept, the game mechanics have to create artificial boundaries that don't follow internal logic (...note the last part - I am aware that the rules are nothing but artificial boundaries XD).

If it is a matter of Fit/Very Fit not being priced appropriately... then instead of making them not work how they logically should (given the explanation and description), why not just increase their cost accordingly or come up with a better justification that won't imply other benefits?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I apparently failed my IQ roll, because I don't see where you're going with that. If I don't know how/why Fit and Very Fit are meant to work in the first place, how can I understand how/why exertion from fueling effects like magic are supposed to work differently?

My point is this: When you design a setting [b]you[b] should design the setting. GURPS doesn't get to decide that.

Obviously if you decide to play GURPS: West Wing the players don't get to take a Burning Innate Attack simply because its there in the Basic Set as an advantage. When you design a setting you decide how it works first then make GURPS work for you to get the results you want in the setting. Designing a setting that is based on the (not always consistent) internal logic of GURPS is bizarre.

Originally Posted by Otaku

If it is a matter of Fit/Very Fit not being priced appropriately... then instead of making them not work how they logically should (given the explanation and description), why not just increase their cost accordingly or come up with a better justification that won't imply other benefits?

It's not a pricing issue, its a psychological issue and I am sure lots of lots people here will get unbelievably snippy about it given half a chance.

If Fit enormously benefits spellcasters (which in your system it would) then players who build a caster that makes senses in the setting but doesn't take full advantage (ie an elderly wizard) they'll feel bad about it. This isn't like calculating exactly the right way to build a character to get a point break, it's a large and obvious benefit that pressures them to break from what they want to do in favor of building a more effective character.

There are certainly setting where the best magic users are inevitably prime physical specimens but not all of them, probably not most of them. The rules in Basic Set are clearly just meant to help GMs working with a more common type of settings. Superheroes or kung-fu masters using chi powers are better candidates for letting Fit benefit supernatural abilities than psi powers and magic.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Not sure I am following your statement. Here is a quick question: "Fit" and "Very Fit" in 3e (as I don't have the 4e rules to reference anymore) .

Fit and Very Fit are totally unchanged since 3e.

What I was saying was the mechanical section where Very Fit allows the possessor to double the interval at which he must roll v. HT to avoid FP loss can not be fitted to FP loss due to spell casting. VF gives a very specific benefit and spell casting doesn't work that way.

If you were to decide (quite possibly in contradiction to some areas of the RAW) that a lost FP is the same regardless of source then both Fit and Very Fit would allow improved recovery rates of that lost FP. Very Fit would not recover faster than Fit though.